This article should create a fun discussion, but be aware that it's most likely completely bogus. I suspect it suffers from survivor bias: anyone who is in a position to jump ship and get a 20% raise consistently is not average. If you try to change jobs every 2 years and are not great at your current position, you'll likely be sorely disappointed.
Agree with this. One of the side effects of this is your top performers are always jumping and the people who tend to stay the longest tend to be average or below average.
Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
171–180 of 207 posts
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. As someone who travels overseas once or twice a year, goes out all the time, I still manage to save>50% of my income. I don't have a car, cycle everywhere, live in a great share house, always look for deals (for traveling and eating out), and stay in the cheaper hotels/bus it around.
Do you have a partner that agrees with that lifestyle? That is where my asceticism runs aground.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of th…
People should try to save early however for most people working a "normal" software development job being able to retire after working for 15 years is unrealistic. Learning to live frugally and to invest wisely are useful traits though. I've never switched jobs to make more money. In every situation where I switched a job my current employer was willing to match my offer. I will switch jobs to work with smarter peopl…
Doesn't that bother you?
That means in every instance, your current employer agrees that you're in fact worth more than they were paying. Why weren't they paying you that in the first place?
For these kinds of negotiations, I'd expect a 6-month back payment at the matched offer rate.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
a couple decades back, when my dad was working for one of the big telecom companies, they invented a new job title specifically so they could promote him with the appropriate pay bump while also keeping him coding instead of managing. (They later hired/promoted others with the same title.) I thought it was a great solution. If a dinosaur like a telecom company can do it, why can't others?
Yeah, this is a fairly common compromise, and even helps in the stupid cases where you can't give person A a job title higher than person B who will be mortified if they don't have the best sounding job title, but you still need to give person A a raise and a feeling of advancement (so glad I don't work at a place like this anymore). So you give them some variation on their current job title (it's not a promotion ove…
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#175My initial response to this was cynical and pithy: if corporations were people, they would be sociopaths (in far larger proportions than the actual human population). In this case, they seem to have zero regard for fairness, but rather only how they can use others to maximize the benefit to themselves.
Upon further reflection though, it is more complicated, and there are many factors and actors in play.
There is a misguided but universally accepted belief that corporations' supreme obligation is to maximize shareholder returns, and that it would be immoral to NOT take any lawful action that would increase profits. The net effect of this is equivalent to having a single sociopathic business owner who will do anything to maximize their own profits without regard for fairness except when a deficit of fairness begins to negatively impact this end. The effects of this philosophy impact decision makers directly and indirectly throughout the organization, and this phenomenon is one of the results. Being fair or rational in treatment of employees is not mandatory or even the primary driver of decisions.
One way this manifests itself is that management justifies its large salaries and bonuses by minimizing costs, of which employees are often a significant portion. Thus, incentive structures throughout the organization will likely reflect this. It doesn't hurt that executives are likely to be sociopaths to some degree, and this just helps them justify their natural inclinations.
Even in a hypothetical case where all levels of decision makers in a company are benevolent and fair minded, there still remains the difficult problem of determining fair salaries for each employee. Developers aren't truly fungible, but they are difficult to value (especially by those further removed from that role). So, in a sense it is rational to treat them as fungible unless you have a reliably accurate means of differentiating. If an HR person is 100% certain they don't know what is fair outside of averages, it would be a rational decision to let an employee's market price be determined by a public auction process among other companies (aka job hopping), rather than granting a request for a large raise outside the normal range.
Of course, this end could be mostly satisfied merely by matching an offer made by another company (aka job shopping) without requiring the employee to leave and return later. However, that is a very low-friction and low-risk proposition for the employee compared to an actual job hop, so inevitably would see much larger participation if accommodated universally. As HR has no way of knowing what the market rate is for all of its employees, it would also have no way of knowing how much this policy would increase the company's costs if it implemented it and every employee utilized it. If a worst-case scenario would cause substantial destruction profits, this would be a high-risk change to implement, and likely would need other coordinated actions to ensure acceptable long-term profitability and approval from shareholders.
Additionally, there is the risk that the employee had no desire to actually accept the other offer, or even colluded to be given a non-genuine offer (from a friend, for instance) under the condition they had zero intention of accepting the offer. Only once the employee terminates employment and spends a substantial amount of time at another company have they proven the offer was genuine, and that their previous salary truly wasn't sufficient to keep them. That is, without a high level of trust in the employee regarding the offer. It also helps if a trusted party (manager, co-workers, etc) confirms their exceptional value to the company, both in justifying the raise and in indicating there won't be cascading impacts upon the rest of employee salaries.
Diverting from this policy requires additional risk and lower profits, mitigated only by a high degree of integrity and competency in all involved in evaluating fair compensation and the long term cost/benefit of granting a raise vs. hiring someone else. The larger the organization, the less likely it would be a rational decision for upper management to assume this to be the norm. Integrity and competency are impossible to objectively quantify or measure, so for those who manage by metrics, I can see how this would pose a problem.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have no idea what makes you think a 10X developer can just "become" a 10X manager. This tendency of programmers to think they are automatically qualified, let alone interested, in being a manager is baffling to me. They are two mostly unrelated disciplines and in my experience, most programmers are not cut out to be managers.
Agreed, and also I suspect (or maybe this is just a silly hope) that the best developers in a company can often make more than their manager, even if their manager is great. Now, moving up to director or VP level or higher (assuming you have the aptitude and desire), is a different story.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
They pay significantly more. Microsoft is another that pays a lot, especially to poach from those three. It is not uncommon for a very good engineer with 5+ years experience to earn above $400K / year (total = base + bonus (if issued) + stocks).
But only in US.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree. Software engineering skill and software engineering job interview skills are only tangentially related. The only thing jumping ship regularly says is you jump ship regularly.
So if they are any good, someone should stand up and say, we should pay this person what they want, if they want to work remote and there are no specific restrictions placed upon them by their job requirements; let them. Keep them. That must not be happening in those cases though or they wouldn't be jumping, that's the point of the article.
If you try to change jobs every 2 years and are not great at your current position, you'll likely be sorely disappointed.
As you say Joe Dev wasn't good enough at their job for anyone to work to keep them, but somehow they have to be excellent to land a job somewhere else every 2 years. My point is Joe Dev is excellent at something, but that is interviewing. It says nothing about his actual job skills except that they aren't so great as to have a company bend over backwards to keep him.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, this is a fairly common compromise, and even helps in the stupid cases where you can't give person A a job title higher than person B who will be mortified if they don't have the best sounding job title, but you still need to give person A a raise and a feeling of advancement (so glad I don't work at a place like this anymore). So you give them some variation on their current job title (it's not a promotion ove…
This has been extremely fascinating reading about job titles. I'll never understand why people care about them.
Re: Employees That Stay In Companies Longer Get Paid Less
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed, and also I suspect (or maybe this is just a silly hope) that the best developers in a company can often make more than their manager, even if their manager is great. Now, moving up to director or VP level or higher (assuming you have the aptitude and desire), is a different story.
Yes, the best devs will generally make more than their mgr, however, the best mgrs will make far more than the the best devs. And as you said, the target is really a VP/Director type position, using mgmt as a stepping stone. It's like how a Sergeant makes more than an Lt in the Army, however, the progression in the officer core quickly outstrips the best an enlisted man can hope for. The great thing about leadership…
Not in the U.S. Army. Most junior NCOs make less than even a fresh Academy graduate. The NCOs making more than a junior lieutenant have all been in the service for 10+ years.