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Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

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171–180 of 210 posts

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#171
post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

> More broadly, the best and most creative work comes from a root of joy and excitement. If you lose your ability to feel joy and excitement about programming-related things, you'll be unable to do the best work.

This is probably true. If you're happy with what you're doing, you're probably (but not certainly) going to be better at it than someone who isn't happy with it, all else being equal.

However, being happy with one's job is not a reasonable goal for most people. Or, to phrase it a little more flagrantly:

The idea that we need to be happy with our jobs is bullshit.

Among the programmers I know, many of them claim to love programming enough that they're happy to do it full time (AND work on side projects!) -- and to them, earning a paycheck is almost an afterthought; it's a nice side effect. The amount doesn't even really matter to them all that much because programming is just so much fun. (This is not a straw man -- I've personally listened to employees at Facebook, Google, and various Silicon Valley startups express this very notion.)

These claims are not easily proven true or false, but I suspect that most of them are false. I think that if a programmer represents himself as anything other than absolutely in love with programming, then they lose a competitive edge.

The truth is, I think, that programming is just a job. It has it's ups and downs, and it's certainly less terrible than many other jobs. Like most jobs, you'll be given tasks that you can't get out of and you just have to learn to deal with.

Not being in love with your job is does not constitute a very serious situation. It's simply a necessary evil for most people.

Perhaps you're one of the lucky ones who likes his job that you do it from a "root of joy and excitement" on a daily basis. But I think such persons are quite rare.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#172
As a programmer and perfectionist with Impostor Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome), I've learned some ways to mitigate these frustrations and stress causing issues, and figured they might be worth sharing.

I think many of us know your pain, and as a consultant I'm exposed to it on a pretty regular basis. It takes some of the fun out of my job for sure, but I don't let it stress me out. First, we should always want to be passionate about the projects we work on, and I think this is a result of being passionate in general. Being passionate makes it enjoyable, and it allows you to bring your best work forward (which is rewarding), but in our industry we must always create a balance of cost and quality in the midst of a very complex process. To me, this all boils down to priorities and expectations.

When you take your own priorities and combine them with those of someone else, you will never be able to get them to mesh completely. Your priorities may be to make quality code, or to make it elegant or smart -- easily maintainable, extensible, etc. etc. These are things that make it fun, and programmers all know the benefits of these things. Clients, or your bosses, may not understand the importance of these things, or they may, and they may be willing to pay it down later, whatever the case may be, there are conflicting priorities at play and this is the thing you must mitigate to avoid stress.

For me, I must either disregard the external priorities entirely and do it the way I believe it "should be done", or I must disregard my priorities entirely and adopt the external priorities as my own. This may result in technical debt, or a slow progression in the future, or can raise the potential of bugs to be introduced, but these are not my concerns if they are not part of the external priorities.

It's important that you communicate all of my concerns up front, and if it doesn't impact the priorities that are communicated, you must trust that it's ok. If you don't trust that it will be ok, or think you will be negatively impacted by doing it the way you're being asked to do it, you should leave. A management(or client)/ employee relationship is built on trust, and if you don't have that trust you will be less happy than you could be.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#174
post #164
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, this is how corporations roll. It's nobody's fault - just human nature. But looking for a non-corporate job is not a solution for everyone, especially not for those of us who have bills to pay or personal commitments to hold on to. Plus, that's where the jobs are .

What you said is really, really depressing. "Jobs are shit and useless, and you have to have one." I do hope you are wrong.

"You have to have one" has been true since we lost our ability to photosynthesize, and it won't be false, at a minimum, until we replace all labor with robots and develop an effectively infinite energy source for those robots.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#175
post #48

I know the exact feeling you're talking about - I used to work at a wonderful small dev shop where things moved fast; whole projects were wrapped off in a week or two. Until this one project where we were asked to 'fix' an already written Android app (written by an Indian outsource then sent to Canada). The contract was for a massive amount of money, everything looked clear cut and straight forward, how could we say…

Interesting story! I have to say I'm curious what the deal is with the restraining order?

If that's what hooked you, go back to your cubicle.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who says your job can't be something you enjoy This is unrealistic. Do you think an economy can survive with everyone doing what they enjoy? Do we have enough people who enjoy cleaning toilets, stocking shelves, and all the other menial, labor intensive jobs? This notion is a utopian, post currency (Star Trek Economy) fantasy.

I'll chime in because I always hear this argument and I don't see it as a particularly good one. Take cleaning toilets, for example. If no one wants to do it then it will become more expensive to find people to do it. That will drive others to come up with an automated solution to the problem that, while expensive, will be cheaper than paying someone to do it. Eventually someone will come up with a solution that mayb…

> people don't need to clean toilets for a living,

I swear to you, our janitor is the happiest, hardest working person in the building. Everyone looks up to him. But I can totally see where he couldn't work at McDonald's, let alone do QA runs on lab systems (a lab tech's job), or diagnose disease. And I think a genuine source of his happiness is having a job. Basic income doesn't solve the problem of feeling valued.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#177
post #164
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, this is how corporations roll. It's nobody's fault - just human nature. But looking for a non-corporate job is not a solution for everyone, especially not for those of us who have bills to pay or personal commitments to hold on to. Plus, that's where the jobs are .

What you said is really, really depressing. "Jobs are shit and useless, and you have to have one." I do hope you are wrong.

A good job is a job you can go to, be safe, do your work, get paid sufficiently, and have decent colleagues.

Anything else you get is a bonus.

Far too many people are concerned with the anything else part, and it reflects the enormous privilege we have today in western society.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#178

1.) Doing things you don't want to do, but are necessary for a paycheck or otherwise is a basic part of being a grown-up. Lacking the discipline to simply get such things done and move on is a huge handicap as it's burning loads of time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere. 2.) This is surely arguable, but I think agonizing over a lack of satisfaction/motivation in a job is likewise a waste of time. If you…

"1.) Doing things you don't want to do, but are necessary for a paycheck or otherwise is a basic part of being a grown-up. Lacking the discipline to simply get such things done and move on is a huge handicap as it's burning loads of time and energy that could be better spent elsewhere." Realizing that changing your environment so that it encourages the right outcome is orders of magnitude beyond being a basic, medioc…

My third point addressed this and the OP pre-emptively stated he/she isn't open that at the moment.

>'I've had this argument with my stepfather until he became abusive.'

That's not terribly surprising given your selective comprehension and tendency to speak in absolutes [1][2][3][above] about who other people are or what they should do.

Chill out.

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7451659

2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7486177

3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7452011

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#179
post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

> I burned myself out once and it took at least 12 years to regain full productivity. Don't do it.

This is interesting to me -- I've been seriously "burned out" at least three times, and each time it's taken me about a month at the right job to recover. We'll see the next time, but I certainly hope/expect it will take a month or less again.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#180
> (I am not in a position to change jobs at the moment. I am helping my > BF's startup by doing this job.)

Quit. Get out. Work out a plan with your BF. It's no good to you or him if you destroy yourself on work you hate. Be happy and poor together rather than rich and dysfunctional apart.

I've never had to work (for a long time) in a job I truly hated, but I've felt the pain of working in a company with a poor management culture -- it's taken me a long time to get back the joy of development since I left. I now work in a completely different, low paying job -- but it's better being payed less and not having to compromise your work every day. I'll probably end up with another job in the industry (well, I hope, anyway!) -- but I'll be very careful in choosing where I apply -- unless I manage to make a living independently.

For you it sounds pretty much anything, anywhere would be an improvement though...

I had a gf that worked in a job that crushed her (she did the right thing, moved away, got certified as a padi instructor and now lives with her husband and their child, both working as diving instructors -- I'd say she made the right choice :).

Quitting might not mean that everything works out for you and your current BF -- but it sounds like staying will ensure that things will not work out for you.

Anyway, good luck, whatever you end up doing...

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