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Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#151
post #118
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations [...] Early on as a programmer, I was often in situations like you describe. [...] If I could go back to my early career I would mercilessly cut out all the shitty jobs I did You know, it's hard to believe it, but at some point parents forget what it felt like being a teenager, and senior developers being junior. I know I'm going h…

You are presuming a lot about what my early career looks like. Really I never worked any jobs as bad as what you describe. Well, maybe the time I did data entry during my first year of college. The longest I ever worked in a highly corporate environment was 7-8 months, but at least at that time I was doing something at least slightly cool (a port of Doom 2 back when that was a new game, and with which I had full auto…

Well yes, this is how corporations roll. It's nobody's fault - just human nature. But looking for a non-corporate job is not a solution for everyone, especially not for those of us who have bills to pay or personal commitments to hold on to. Plus, that's where the jobs are.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#152

People tend to reserve pair-programming for tasks they perceive as being unusual, complex, or otherwise needing extra review. Personally, I've found it can be helpful even when you simply need to stay on task. When you both have the same goal, you can rally each other; it's typical to become more productive together than you would have been apart. If this sounds like it could be your style, grab a buddy and see if yo…

Back when Pivotal Labs largely made prototypes for wealthy people's ill-conceived ventures (think social networking for dogs), the saving grace was that you were pairing.

It's amazing how much better a boring project is when the sample files you upload are image macros with your boss's head photoshopped on a walrus, and there's someone next to you laughing.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#153
You're there by choice because your BF needs your help, yet you write about how you're surprised they won't fire you. That probably makes less sense than any feature request they have sent you.

It's a good question though.

After analyzing requests I have issues with, I will setup a meeting to discuss what I think are the issues, and propose a better solution.

If they push it off as "This is what the customer (or some other decision maker) wanted", I ask if we know if they have considered the issues and if we can propose alternatives.

If they still want to move forward, I ask or work with them to discover more detail about how it will be developed, and make sure they fully understand and explicitly acknowledge each piece I think is insane, irresponsible, or otherwise.

It usually doesn't get to that with good managers or clients. If it does, and it happens regularly, it's time to fire them and move on.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#154

Oh boy, so I get to be the contrarian again. First of all, isn't it a bit dramatic to say "your entire being opposes" your task? It's not like you're out committing genocide or something. You're programming, and you have to work on a crappy programming task. Every programmer who ever worked a professional job has had to do this at some point. If the very fiber of your soul is wrapped up in your employer's MegaAccount…

This is exactly the conclusion I came to.

The code you write for work and the code you write for you are two entirely different things. I am so much happier with my work when I assume everything is stupid and nonsensical (it almost always is, I work for a marketing company); I do it with a smile on my face because they pay me and experience is valuable. Not to mention having this kind of job when you're a 22y/o college dropout is improbable, to say the least, and complaining is stupid.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#155
post #48

I know the exact feeling you're talking about - I used to work at a wonderful small dev shop where things moved fast; whole projects were wrapped off in a week or two. Until this one project where we were asked to 'fix' an already written Android app (written by an Indian outsource then sent to Canada). The contract was for a massive amount of money, everything looked clear cut and straight forward, how could we say…

Interesting story! I have to say I'm curious what the deal is with the restraining order?

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#156
post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

I felt obliged to comment because 1) I agree with you 2) I feel like I'm doing what you wished you did when you were younger and 3) OP needs to read this. I've been in jobs similar to OP. Sometimes I didn't agree with what I was asked to do and other times I knew I was being asked to do something simply to keep me busy. Fortunately for me, I had one good job to compare against my shitty jobs so I had a little more pe…

> ...I wouldn’t be able to get a job ... but > I haven’t felt that... it won’t matter - especially > to the people who matter.

Be extremely careful with that! Expectations change, fast, as you age. I keep getting asked about my foolish/unstable years, even a decade+ after.

It is expected of a young professional to hop around a bit... it could be argued that you cannot truly mature until you have seen a couple of different versions of "this is the way things get done around here" meme. But if you overdo it, your perceived value will take a hit and it will take some work to overcome the "unwillingness to commit" perception.

One thing I have observed in this industry is that nobody gets any sound information on how to recruit people; specially how to find and bring in people whose unique strengths will benefit the most to the current team. Under this circumstances, most programmers default to look "people like me, only more so" which tend to form teams with a sort of hive mind.

The relevance to job hopping is that by doing so, you are ruling yourself out of any job whose hiring manager and/or teach lead have had bad experiences with it. Since you do not know what kind of person you will turn out to be by age 40, or what the job market is going to be like at any point during your multi-decade career, it makes sense to not burn any bridges if this can be avoided.

I would not go as far as to say that you should suck it up and keep a job that is making you hate yourself or your art. I had one of those once and barely lasted 4 months there. But if you make an habit of quitting every time there is something to bothers you, you might find out later on that memories are longer than what it looks like at first sight.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This a thousand times. I just quit a job because the work was dull, unimportant and consisted largely in cleaning up other people's messes. I'm replacing it with a job at a company with high values and strong ethics, a profitable and secure business model and it's a company I enjoy. I'll be working on a project from start to finish and code quality will be my driving force. Quit your junk job and find a situation tha…

How do you know this is the right job for you if you've just started at it? How do you know that you won't be bored at this job or you won't be cleaning others' mess, after a few days/months (No pun intended).

I vetted the company by talking with a friend who works there and by being mindful throughout the interviewing process. So I have a reasonable expectation. I had other great offers and I've worked in a lot of different kinds of companies so I know how to look and what to look for now.

Of course, there could also be a quagmire of corporate politics and sloth that won't get revealed for months. If that happens, I'll reevaluate periodically and open the door to change.

Even in the best case, I don't expect I'll work there for the rest of my life. 5 or 10 years would be fine and all I look for right now.

[Edit: added more thoughts below]

I think the crux is learning about yourself and what you want out of a job, and out of life. That takes time, it's a nonlinear process, and it's non-deterministic too. Make mistakes (embrace them, not fear them), be prepared for change (keep a few month's worth of cash in the bank), follow your dreams, and do the things you love as much as possible.

And try everything. Live life to it's fullest.

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks." - Lazarus Long (RAH).

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#158
post #130

Just check out. Hang an "out to lunch" sign on your brain. There is no solution within your reach for management that is ignorant with respect to your job. Stop putting forth extra effort that will ultimately be wasted. Clearly, you have discovered serendipitously that no one can tell the difference between you doing your job well and you doing your job poorly. So stop trying. Just relax and do the first thing that c…

> So stop trying. Just relax and ... build up some technical debt. > Set yourself up for a job hop.... While that can work in the short term, I don't think it's a very professional thing to do long-term, especially when one couples it with lobbying for things to help you bail to a "better" company. Let go of your caring about the existence of technical debt __temporarily__, but then take some time to go back and addr…

In the situation described by the OP, and shared by many of us, myself included, your managers simply do not care about the professional integrity of the software developer.

My boss has explicitly told me to forget about industry best practices or retiring technical debt. It interferes with the prime directive, which is to log 40 billable hours per employee per week, for as long as the contract gets renewed. The technical debt is simply used as a justification to extract more money from the customer while doing less actual work. In that case, informing the manager gets you reprimanded for destroying his plausible deniability and ass-covering.

There is simply no way to act professionally in this situation. The best thing to do is simply keep quiet and leave ASAP. The emotional detachment is simply to delay burnout and preserve any potential enthusiasm for the next thing.

I can truly say that there is no way I could possibly make the codebase noticeably worse than it already is. It was like that when I arrived. When I suggested that it could be fixed if approached prudently, I was shot down. When I suggested that the developers read a book on better development practices, I was shot down. That was when I sensed the knife against my back ribs and checked out.

Stay sane. Use the opportunity to be more selective in your continuing job hunt.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#159
post #46

I felt obliged to comment because I feel I know what you are talking about and I also worry that much of the advice posted so far is wrong at best, dangerous at worst. I am 42-year-old very successful programmer who has been through a lot of situations in my career so far, many of them highly demotivating. And the best advice I have for you is to get out of what you are doing. Really. Even though you state that you a…

To add to this, one thing that often doesn't get enough attention is that the majority of the best developers tend to be artists (or at least artisans). Most often this fact is unappreciated because most of the artistry of software is invisible except to the people working closely on it. Also, when looking from afar or when looking close up for only a moment the work looks mostly technical and mechanical. But people ignore that the same is true of artistic works, because we can see the outcomes more clearly so we avoid being misled.

Many times I've seen developers getting burned out because their management treated them like factory workers or, worse, cattle. Often what happens is that some of the better devs start leaving and then that creates a cascade where the working environment just gets worse and worse for everyone else (fewer good people to do the work so more work and more stress for everyone else, and fewer coworkers you enjoy working with) and more and more good people leave.

What you say is totally true about working on projects you care about. That's always the way it will be with artists. If you want to work on something that you don't care about, you can, but you won't be able to do so at your full capacity. You'll need to disengage with it enough to keep it at arm's distance, to disinvest much of your self from it. That too can be perilous because it risks becoming disinvested from development as a whole and losing your passion entirely.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#160
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are presuming a lot about what my early career looks like. Really I never worked any jobs as bad as what you describe. Well, maybe the time I did data entry during my first year of college. The longest I ever worked in a highly corporate environment was 7-8 months, but at least at that time I was doing something at least slightly cool (a port of Doom 2 back when that was a new game, and with which I had full auto…

I'm someone graduating from college in a few months, and this is one of the most striking things to me about a programmer's expected outlook on jobs. The career path of going and getting an internship, then becoming a junior developer, etc etc at some corporation is something that seems like it would suck the soul out of anyone that is even moderately creative. During my first internship at a "normal" corporation, I…

I would suggest that you don't try to "avoid" the corporate phase. Instead look for a company that makes a product which you find meaningful. Once you do, you'll likely be able to find creative avenues regardless of the company's size. You just have to go about it the right way:

First, you'll want to become a expert in your company's product domain. This will make your creative flashes much more relevant, and therefore more likely to see the light of day.

Second, start small. Use your own time to create a new tool which you know your team will find useful, and use the opportunity to teach yourself something new while you're at it. After a few successive wins you'll be allowed more and more leeway to apply your creative energies during company time, and the impact of your successes will grow.

Third, don't ask your manager for permission to work on Side Project X, at least not until you have somewhat of a reputation for delivering useful innovations. It truly is easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Lastly, give your colleagues a sense of ownership. People tend to be much more supportive of innovations that they feel they're a part of.

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