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Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

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Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#171

Post by dyno12345 »

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #141
ardit33 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How old are you? I used to have the same existential feelings as well when I moved in SF, but over time you just get used to it and don't care anymore. It is part of the maturation process and realize that the world is not a fair place, and no not everybody is equal and will live equally. One thing you realize is that a lot of the people on the streets have major mental conditions (usually schizophrenia, and major dr…

i'm 27 now - this was when i was 25. i've since moved to the south bay to work at google, and things have improved significantly after a lot of meditation. i honestly have a more 'adversarial' mindset towards the homeless - i think a lot of the people in sf begging for change simply don't want to work, and because they can make a living preying on the guilt of people like me, they do so. as for the schizophrenics out…

The kids on Haight street just want to bum around – there was that article* that found they could make almost as much money begging as they could at a minimum wage job.

Other parts of the city I think have more people that really are drug-addicted or borderline insane

* http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/43085729257/the-street-kid...

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#172

Post by tobinfricke »

tokenadult wrote: post #162

Places with good weather have huge visible homeless populations. (I have traveled all over the United States, and have been to all fifty states. AFTER EDIT: I have been in, and have lived in, gritty "skid row" neighborhoods of large United States cities, and have lived in Los Angeles.) Places with lousy weather, like the place where I grew up and now live, certainly have people who are "homeless" in the sense of not…

Having moved from the U.S. to northern Germany, I have to say: the difference is shocking. Here, mentally unstable homeless people are not a daily sight on the city streets. In fact, I have seen only one San Francisco-style lunatic: and he was, indeed, raving in English. Saying that "United States social policy is [not] a model for anywhere" must be an understatement. I would ask: what social policy? Any aid from the government ("welfare") is heavily stigmatized, except perhaps for retirees. From homelessness to health care to public transportation to to education to racial tension to gun violence, the U.S. appears a mockery of itself.

Regarding the homelessness situation in California, I learned in school that it had something to do with Governor Ronald Reagan dismantling the state's mental health system.

Have you seen skid row in Los Angeles? I can't imagine that such a scene exists anywhere in western Europe.

This article looks relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Stat...

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#173

Post by meunier »

amackera wrote: post #45
jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

I have had similar experiences in Toronto, Canada. We even have universal healthcare, and good social programs. At least in SF a homeless person won't die from exposure in the wintertime.

Toronto has way more of a handle on homelessness than other parts of Canada in my experience. It's much worse in the neighbouring provincial capitals, Montreal and Winnipeg.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#174

Post by pessimizer »

mseebach wrote: post #138
CodeMage wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty on the other hand is a much, much harder problem than that. In fact, no one quite knows how to solve it in a general way (there are things that seem to work in certain contexts but not in others, many special case half-solutions). Everyone keeps saying that, as if there were only two alternatives: 1) completely fix poverty in a general way or 2) keep the status quo (and allow it to get worse). There has to be…

Homelessness isn't primarily (if at all) a (financial) poverty problem. Mental disorders and drug addiction are large factors, and neither are fixable with cash.

Of course they are. Mental disorders can be fixed by paying for the treatment of people with mental disorders, and drug addiction can be fixed by paying for the treatment (rather than the imprisonment) of people who are addicted to drugs.

There's nothing making drug addicts homeless other than the fact that we drive up a thousandfold the prices of substances that cost pennies to produce.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#175

Post by bubbleRefuge »

beat wrote: post #23
glesica wrote: post #18

I think that when people say "hard problems" they mean "problems that almost certainly have solutions if you are willing to put in the effort". Poverty on the other hand is a much, much harder problem than that. In fact, no one quite knows how to solve it in a general way (there are things that seem to work in certain contexts but not in others, many special case half-solutions). And on top of that, there probably is…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! No more poverty, except in self-inflicted cases (drug addiction, for example), or things like severe and very expensive illness (which are covered by other means)…

The Job Guarantee or Employer of Last Resort (JG or ELR) program is a better solution. 1) Immediately moves the economy to full employment. All but eliminates social ills associated with unemployment. 2) Puts a floor on labor standards. That is in order to hire somebody out of labor pool, private business has to offer a better package. Health insurance should be automatic. (My Gosh prisoners get free health care!) 3) Counter-cyclical/Auto-Stabilizer/Buffer stock effect on macro economy. As economy improves people leave the JG program. As economy weakens, people shift into JG. 4) JG labor force can be put to work at local government levels to boost services. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_guarantee

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#176

Post by run4yourlives »

VMG wrote: post #145
run4yourlives wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Distributing money indiscriminately devalues work and effort. This is a poor understanding of the concept. The idea behind a Basic Income Guarantee is that it is received equally by every citizen in the country. It's an idea linked to Negative Income Tax and other like proposals, and shares support of many with a more libertarian/economically conservative bent. In most areas of North America where Basic Income exper…

So why should I want to subsidize single mothers? Why should I disincentivize teenagers from gaining their first work experience? I agree that there are some people who deserve financial support, but it should be up to the individual to decide who that is and how much they should receive.

>So why should I want to subsidize single mothers?

You aren't subsidizing anything. You are allowing the mother to raise their child with more options available to them. At the very least, it increases the chances of the child's success, and overall the chances that you are not paying for programs, prisons, social services in the future.

> Why should I disincentivize teenagers from gaining their first work experience?

Because they are "gaining that experience" instead of completing their schooling in many occurrences. I don't need to explain why it's a good idea to have as many people as possible stay in school, do I?

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#177

Post by roguecoder »

ardit33 wrote: post #132
MarkPNeyer wrote: post #84

i worked at uber and twilio in the city. I was so bothered by the homeless people I saw everyday that it seriously impeded my work performance. i'd walk by them and feel terrible for not being able to help, for having an easy time making money, and feel afraid that my bipolar disorder would get worse and i'd end up like them. it was hard to function properly at work when I'd start my day feeling guilty, powerless and…

How old are you? I used to have the same existential feelings as well when I moved in SF, but over time you just get used to it and don't care anymore. It is part of the maturation process and realize that the world is not a fair place, and no not everybody is equal and will live equally. One thing you realize is that a lot of the people on the streets have major mental conditions (usually schizophrenia, and major dr…

You've mistaken cynicism and a lack of empathy for maturity.

Not everyone has a family, and even if they do we should be pushing for institutional changes so that the family isn't forced to make a choice between eventual bankruptcy or turning their family out on the street.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#178

Post by wutbrodo »

VMG wrote: post #145
run4yourlives wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Distributing money indiscriminately devalues work and effort. This is a poor understanding of the concept. The idea behind a Basic Income Guarantee is that it is received equally by every citizen in the country. It's an idea linked to Negative Income Tax and other like proposals, and shares support of many with a more libertarian/economically conservative bent. In most areas of North America where Basic Income exper…

So why should I want to subsidize single mothers? Why should I disincentivize teenagers from gaining their first work experience? I agree that there are some people who deserve financial support, but it should be up to the individual to decide who that is and how much they should receive.

This sort of economic blind spot is shockingly common, and presumably stems from the belief that economics is zero-sum. The idea behind subsidizing single mothers and keeping teens in school (which is the case that your parent comment was describing) is that the cost of this subsidy is theoretically lower than the expected cost of losing productive members of society or even worse, losing them to gang activity, which has further costs (single-parent households and high school dropouts are both _strongly_ linked to gang activity).

You may as well be saying "Why should I be paying taxes to put out a fire at the house down the street"? Well, if/when the fire spreads, you're going to be paying for it like it or not, so it seems like common sense to address the problem before the total cost is far higher.

The relationship between gang activity and dropout rates is something of a chicken-and-egg problem, but given that "stopping gang activity" is damn near impossible through enforcement alone (this is basically the tactic we've been trying), it's strange that our culture is such that attacking the problem from the other side is anathema.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#179

Post by jarrett »

This article leaves out an important point: Most, if not all, programmers I know do care about these issues, but we can't solve them. We would if we could, but it's not what our profession is good at.

The title of the article, "come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep," speaks to this. We programmers have the tools to solve many interesting and important problems, but certainly not all. Deeply rooted social problems such as homelessness cannot be solved with a mobile app or data analysis.

So programmers see homeless people on the way to work, and we feel bad, but what can we do? Maybe the author wants us to feel guilty about the gap between rich and poor. But bear in mind most of us are not the rich of America. We're in the middle. Yes, it's much, much more comfortable in the middle than at the bottom, and I think most of us are grateful to be where we are. But most of us aren't aristocrats; we work for a living. And we're also not the ones who want to further widen the income gap. Rather, we tend to vote for progressive candidates and policies.

Is there more we could do? I'm not sure what it would be. Charitable donations help a little, but won't solve the problem. Volunteering helps a little, but again, it's marginal. It's the people who actually work in advocacy, politics, and homeless services that are really in a position to help solve these problems. Programmers just aren't the ones to do it.

Coincidentally, I actually do have some experience in the homeless services world. And from what I have seen, the solution is basically money.

Much of the homeless population cannot be permanently cured. There is no homelessness reboot, where you go in for rehab, mental health treatment, etc., and you come out ready to face the world as a gainfully employed, self-sufficient person. Even with treatment, relapses are the norm, rather than the exception.

Consequently, the realistic and humane solution is to put up the money for a basic safety net. Considering the number of homeless in our country and the rather modest price of providing basic food and shelter, it would not really be a noticeable drain on our society. And just to head off criticism: We're not talking about putting lazy people in the Hilton and feeding them caviar. Even spartan, barracks-style homeless shelters, such as the ones where I've worked, are a whole lot better than leaving people on the street. So-called lazy people (i.e. those who can work but don't want to) will not take advantage of this, because it's not an attractive option. No matter how lazy you are, you will choose to work over living in a homeless shelter if you can.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#180

Post by roguecoder »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #4

The guy's Scottish, he thinks it's about San Fran specifically, it's really about AMERICA. Maybe San Fran puts it even more in your face. But compared to most any other country even half as rich as America, the lack of social safety net in the U.S. is kind of shocking. People in Europe don't really realize the extent of it.

San Fran's housing policy and strict land-use regulations have prevented the creation of large-scale housing units (both public and private) that address this problem elsewhere. The homeless population isn't an accident; it's the creation of government regulation and middle-class fear of high-density housing.
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