Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive • Hacker News Board

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#171

Post by aravenel » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #141

brudgers wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you want to own a house? Is it as an impediment to relocating? For the risk of a highly leveraged investment? Or so that you can spend time and money fixing leaking pipes on Tuesday evening and patching the gypsum board on Saturday? Ever notice how most small businesses deal with real-estate? Hint: they don't negotiate a thirty year lock-in.

In many places in the US there are two issues: -The max quality or size of rental properties is not that high, you may not be able to rent a nice freestanding house in some places because culturally speaking, people with more than $X usually buy. -Landlord-tenant law may be very favourable to the landlord and not to the tenant. That motivates people to buy rather than rent and deal with shitty landlords. In addition…

I think this is a very important point. In most places outside of the big cities (basically NY, SF, and Chicago), there is very little housing stock available for rent, aside from in low-income neighborhoods and near schools. Furthermore, what you do find is mostly people who are simple looking to sell but can't and are renting in the meantime--you had better bet that they will sell it out from under you at the first opportunity they get, and moving is not cheap.

Even if you are able to find a place to rent that is stable, now you have to deal with a landlord and (possibly) other tenants. You can't do what you want to the place, when you want to. I think this weighs on people.

I completely agree that too many people that shouldn't end up buying a place, and that buying a place is a lot of work. But it's about the only choice in most of the country.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#172

Post by fluidcruft » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 7:30 PM UTC

frobozz wrote: post #164

chii wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mortgage rates are lower than rental prices in many places, its unlikely that mortgage payments are lower than rent - otherwise, it'd be better to pay the mortgage than renting! You would buy a place, and rent out a room or two, and have the rent income plus your own money to pay the mortgage. I m not against renting - but i just don't want people to think that a mortgage is some baggage that they are better off no…

>its unlikely that mortgage payments are lower than rent - otherwise, it'd be better to pay the mortgage than renting! In some places, they are, and it is. However, I would be incredibly surprised if there is anywhere where the mortgage payments on a 100% LTV mortgage are lower than rent; and this is one of the reasons why many settled people don't own their own home. They can't (yet) afford a sufficient deposit to m…

In my city (a) renting is with very, very few exceptions uniformly explicitly forbidden by home owner association agreements (bans that are now backed by recent state supreme court victories, the only places you can rent are in the small regions of the city that predate the explosive subdivision-based growth that started in the 70's--presumably driven by white flight, but I don't know for certain), (b) renting is made very unpalatable by a number of policies made by the city itself and (c) homestead property tax exemptions for homeowners that make owning very, very expensive if they don't live in their house themselves.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#173

Post by hayksaakian » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 9:57 PM UTC

brianchu wrote: post #56

hayksaakian wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm an out of state Cal student who gets no (free) financial aid ( I get some lower interest loans). The above number is accurate. My family has a gross income of less than what you describe, and I have no siblings. Merit scholarships are non unique to your argument. By definition few people will get them. College is still expensive, as demand for a degree exceeds the supply of high quality schools, prices have o…

That gross income figure applies only in the context of top private schools. UCs don't have enough funding for generous financial aid; I believe out of state students receive even less aid. This is what I was saying when I said that many top private colleges are more affordable than state colleges. Merit scholarships are in the context of alternatives to Ivy League educations. If you're not a star student, and are fr…

maybe I just fell for the usnews rankings

as a first generation college student, it's hard to say 'no'.

perhaps my circumstances are too unique.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#174

Post by Suncho » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 11:12 PM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #123

Suncho wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want them to die off. I do want them to depend on welfare. Whether they layabout is up to them. Historically, if you go way back, everyone grew/hunted their own food and built their own houses etc. This was a very brittle/brutal existence. Drought, disease, or a cold winter means I might die or my family might die. So we learned to be efficient by dividing up tasks and specializing. This reduced the total amo…

"That's a good thing. It frees people up to do what they want with their time." I agree with your premise. IMO, socialism, like or it not, is an inevitable result of a highly technical society. This is a good thing in the long term but it is going to result in decades of horribleness, at least in the US, because so little of the population is going to accept this until it is clearly inevitable.

Yes. There will be growing pains as we adjust to this new kind of economy.

When talking about socialism, it's important to distinguish between goods and services that have a level of scarcity and those that don't.

We have the resources to provide food for everyone, but we don't have the resources to provide private jets for everyone. That means there should be a market for private jets. There should always be a market for luxuries. There should never be a market for things we can easily give everyone. As technology advances, old markets will collapse and new markets will rise.

The government should provide for its people as much as it can. No more. No less.

The good news is that once society recognizes that having a job is optional, we no longer need to worry about silly things like minimum wage, living wage, or unions. You'd be working at a job because:

A. You enjoy spending your time that way. B. It pays enough that you're willing to sacrifice your time in order to gain access to luxuries.

If a job pays $3 an hour and you don't like it, then don't work at that job. It's in no way tied to your survival.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#175

Post by Suncho » Thu, Jan 10, 2013, 11:25 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #144

Suncho wrote: post #68

While I think he's made some important observations and I agree with some of his advice, I don't agree with his conclusion that young people are screwed. Here's an important insight that I definitely agree with: "But won’t a college degree pay for itself? It probably won’t." It won't. You probably shouldn't get one if your goal is to make money. Here's some advice I disagree with: "My advice to young people is to fig…

>It's not reasonable to tell young people (or any people) that their goal should be to find a job so they can be self-sufficient and they can support themselves financially. It's quite correct to tell any given young person or group of young people to do so! That doesn't mean that it works as a policy prescription. To take your musical chairs model a bit further: I might like there to be more chairs, I'd like that qu…

Excellent points. But it's important to remember that as the number of chairs keeps decreasing, your advice becomes less appropriate for any given young person. Personally, even today, I would advise most individuals who got accepted by Yale not to go. The quality of free online education is so high that we've essentially reached the point where "everyone got in" to Yale.

What does the decrease in the number of chairs mean? It means that less work is necessary and fewer jobs are necessary to support our society. This is good. We should want it to continue decreasing. I would like there to be fewer chairs, and faster. =)

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#176

Post by csixty4 » Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 6:48 AM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #63

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #24

Since the beginning of the financial crisis the media has constantly been repeating that the housing market was key to recovery and that the government had to do things to help prop up house prices. As someone who would like to own a house in the future, I find it quite unfair that the government is helping to maintain bubble prices. It is yet another way for current homeowners to to extract as much money as possible…

Why do you want to own a house? Is it as an impediment to relocating? For the risk of a highly leveraged investment? Or so that you can spend time and money fixing leaking pipes on Tuesday evening and patching the gypsum board on Saturday? Ever notice how most small businesses deal with real-estate? Hint: they don't negotiate a thirty year lock-in.

> Or so that you can spend time and money fixing leaking pipes on Tuesday evening and patching the gypsum board on Saturday?

Oh god, yes! Do I ever! I would love to have a pipe spring a leak on Tuesday and fix it on Tuesday, instead of spending Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday calling the maintenance guy every two hours to nag him to come fix it.

We spent 48 hours without a working toilet once because maintenance was too busy to come over and unclog it. When I owned my home, I would just go out to the garage, get the auger, and clear out the clog.

The Realtor.com app has replaced pornography for me. I can't wait for our lease to be up. Just six more months to go...

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#177

Post by Mvandenbergh » Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 9:59 AM UTC

Suncho wrote: post #175

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not reasonable to tell young people (or any people) that their goal should be to find a job so they can be self-sufficient and they can support themselves financially. It's quite correct to tell any given young person or group of young people to do so! That doesn't mean that it works as a policy prescription. To take your musical chairs model a bit further: I might like there to be more chairs, I'd like that qu…

Excellent points. But it's important to remember that as the number of chairs keeps decreasing, your advice becomes less appropriate for any given young person. Personally, even today, I would advise most individuals who got accepted by Yale not to go. The quality of free online education is so high that we've essentially reached the point where "everyone got in" to Yale. What does the decrease in the number of chair…

Sure enough, but to strain the analogy even further, if we need fewer chairs then we need to find a place for people not playing the game to sit.

Also, the quality of free online education is not high enough to make it folly to go to Yale. Of course you still have to into account the cost, but for many people that will be much lower than sticker because of their generous endowment funded financial aid policies.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#178

Post by vy8vWJlco » Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 10:46 AM UTC

> "My advice to young people is to figure out how to make something."

Problem: patents.

Good luck making things as a "little guy" with patents (software or otherwise) in the way. Patents and similar government-granted monopolies are all, by definition, obstacles to economic activity through an accessible and competitive market. They are also the most difficult to overcome for those starting at the bottom.

Want economic recovery? Break monopolies.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#179

Post by russgray » Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 10:54 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #147

russgray wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never find this answer convincing. Firstly, most renters are unlikely to invest the difference - we are a nation of spenders. Secondly, that rent will creep up, whereas my mortgage payment stays the same - eventually that difference will disappear, or even open up in the other direction. Thirdly, I'll have paid off my mortgage in another 12 years or so, at which point I can invest my entire payment every month whil…

Didn't we just learn that "investing" in real estate isn't always the best idea, either? Buying a house to live in on credit is part spending, part leveraged speculation.

Meh, I don't consider my house an investment (in that I don't expect it to generate a return), it's somewhere to live. Most people understand that a car is a terrible 'investment', but if you intend to drive the same one for a decade you're better off buying it than leasing it. Same thing, but different scale.

Re: Young People Are Screwed: Here's How To Survive

#180

Post by Suncho » Fri, Jan 11, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #177

Suncho wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent points. But it's important to remember that as the number of chairs keeps decreasing, your advice becomes less appropriate for any given young person. Personally, even today, I would advise most individuals who got accepted by Yale not to go. The quality of free online education is so high that we've essentially reached the point where "everyone got in" to Yale. What does the decrease in the number of chair…

Sure enough, but to strain the analogy even further, if we need fewer chairs then we need to find a place for people not playing the game to sit. Also, the quality of free online education is not high enough to make it folly to go to Yale. Of course you still have to into account the cost, but for many people that will be much lower than sticker because of their generous endowment funded financial aid policies.

Exactly. Instead of spending energy trying to increase the number of chairs, we need to find a place for the people not playing the game to sit. My hope is that society realizes this before we go through too much pain and suffering.

Regarding the Yale degree, I agree that it will always be useful and valuable to some people. But even then, the value of a Yale degree to someone graduating today is different from the value of a Yale degree to someone graduating four years from now.