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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#171

Post by tolerance »

tencentshill wrote: post #114
Aurornis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no lo…

The algorithm is not personalized. It's the same for every user. No issue there.

But still an algorithm. The difference is that we (at least some of us) place a greater trust in the integrity behind how information surfaces on HN. I think that some parts of it are open source, and the moderators are transparent enough about what isn't public + there is a mix of folk knowledge that explains how HN works under the hood.

Depersonalized algorithms or recommender systems aren't inherently better than personalized ones. HN is an exceptional example of the former but I think at scale people would come up with a different crop of complaints for them.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#172

Post by doctorpangloss »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

"this" - you mean, engagement optimization? i think it would be different content. i don't know how much liability matters, people spend all day watching netflix too, and it is "liable."

ironically, i'm only reading this kind of low brow take because people upvote it, not because it makes any sense.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#173

Post by kyledrake »

akersten wrote: post #158
sixo wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To hold this view you have to think of information as "not real", not like "real" molecules and receptors, the mind as distinct from the body, and then restrict the legal definition of harm to only "real" things. This is an odd thing to do, because : - information is real, it exists in the universe. - the harm of social media is real, as measured by many of the same measures as the harm of smoking Why not do somethin…

The other side of the view is "information is real and I don't like some of it ("it's harmful/addictive/blasphemous") so it must be controlled and regulated." I don't think it's an odd thing to be opposed to that line of thinking.

People in here are casually linking social media to cigarettes, a product that kills half its users, and in previous iterations I've seen people compare social media to using heroin. It's completely hysterical.

I expect tabloid journalists and grandstanding politicians to do this, it really scares me when HN users that should know better do it.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#175

Post by djyde »

butlike wrote: post #112
anzerarkin wrote: post #22

I don’t think this is only a kids issue. A lot of adults need this too. The addictive apps are very well designed, while most blockers are either too easy to ignore or too annoying to keep using. I built a small iOS blocker because I had the same problem. Making it strict enough to actually work without making people hate it is the main challenge.

Toast notifications were the big mistake. Also badges. In my perfect world, the only thing to retain the ability to keep messages alerting the user that someone tried to contact them would be voicemail, subject to the same spam laws as everything else.

[dead]

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#176

Post by eowln »

soco wrote: post #121
eowln wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no active implementations that do not suffer from severe issues.

There are two ongoing implementations: one weaker in the EU boooo and one good in Switzerland. None having severe issues. Questions?

I have none, I already am aware of the functioning of the systems that have been deployed, hence my statements of fact.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#177

Post by tmvphil »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #70
stingraycharles wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

"By algorithm" can be easily defined. The easy benchmark to setup can easily be, that any feed that displays the data in a way other than the following is considered an editorial choice and thus the platform is liable as a publisher: 1. In a chronological order, and only filtered based on user selected options. 2. In any other order explicitly selected by the user. An exception can be made to allow filtering out cont…

If the user selects "sort by algorithm" then I don't see how you've changed anything other than the default. I think it's pretty obvious just changing the default won't work.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#178

Post by bee_rider »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #64
stingraycharles wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great example. These companies are already experts at circumventing taxes, what makes you think they can’t weasel their way around some arbitrary written law? Just look at the malicious compliance that Apple and Google have around the App Store stuff, they’ll find a way to comply with the law and implement different addictive dark patterns. I’m not saying that I disagree that these companies need to be regulated, I a…

Regulated by who? There’s no political organization (yes Mamdani actually out-raised cuomo so let that sink in) that isn’t being actively bribed

Although it should be noted that Mamdani’s average donation size skewed much smaller than Cuomo’s, so it is possible that Mamdani was “bribed” by the general public.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#179

Post by tolerance »

jrflo wrote: post #163
Aurornis wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you didn’t notice, this comment is an ad for a paid app trying to capitalize on social media anger. I respect the hustle, but this is not a neutral comment on the topic due to the financial interest. There are many free alternative plugins for targeting social media feeds if someone wants to filter these.

I removed the link, just thought it was relevant to the discussion.

I was going to make a similar accusation as the above but I skimmed your comments and it didn't seem like you were the sort to have ill intent behind bringing it up. Next time you might want to include one of those stuffy "Disclosure" notices.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#180

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

kubb wrote: post #43
stingraycharles wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

This is some kind of a meme where people believe things can’t be defined in legal terms and therefore can’t be regulated. These people are usually not lawyers. Does anyone know where it’s coming from? I can certainly believe that incompetent jurisdictions have a ton of issues with people misapplying the law and using loopholes.

The point isn't that it can't be regulated. What the original comment said was

> This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present.

But this is not in fact easy. It's hard to define what "present data by algorithm" means in a coherent way, and it's hard to extend liability for the content you present to liability for the manner in which you present it. You could make it work, if for some reason you really wanted to, but it's easier to pursue the strategy described in the source article of regulating specific abusive patterns.

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