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Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

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Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#171

Post by userbinator »

mbesto wrote: post #127
JojoFatsani wrote: post #24

Most software is not designed by intelligent and thoughtful people anymore. It is designed by hastily promoted middle manager PM/Product type people who, as has been mentioned elsewhere, simply were not around when thoughtful human interface design was borderline mandatory for efficiency’s sake. There is incompetence and there is also malevolence in the encouragement of dark patterns by the revenue side of the busine…

This is reductionist and myopic. I've personally been through building forms online and it's hell to try to find consensus on perhaps the most common forms used online. Let's take a credit card form: - Do I let the user copy and paste values in? - Do I let them use IE6? - Do I need to test for the user using an esotoric browser (Brave) with an esoteric password manager (KeePassXC)? - Do I make it accessible for someo…

All you need to do is use standard HTML form elements. None of those questions are even relevant, just excuses to increase complexity and make things harder for everyone.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#172

Post by lelanthran »

hungryhobbit wrote: post #140
lelanthran wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> React is also how you get consistent design across a major web app. Can you imagine if every button on every site was the same Windows button gray color, regardless of the site's color? It'd be awful! React components (with CSS classes) are a way for a site like Amazon to make all their buttons orange (although I don't actually know if Amazon uses React specifically). I don't understand this point specifically. I m…

It depends on the type of site/app you are building. If you are building a basic website (not a web application), or a simple application, you don't need React (or a similar framework like Vue or Angular). You might not even need Javascript at all. However, as you build more complex and interactive applications, you need "framework", like React. It's essential to simply handle the complexity of such applications. You…

I am not convinced that, when using a framework (React, etc), the best way to enforce consistent UI is via the framework.

A button should be styled independent of the framework. That's how you will get consistency. Same with every other non-component element.

The use of the component framework should be to consistently style non-primitive style elements (all the standard HTML elements).

What value is there in using React/whatever in styling buttons, links, paragraphs, headings, various inputs, etc? Today, in 2026, even menus, tabs, etc are done with nothing more than primitive elements; what value does React bring to the consistency of menus that you don't already have?

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#173

Post by userbinator »

basilium wrote: post #98

Am I the only one who doesn't know what that "Keep me signed in" checkbox is for? I mean, I was a web developer for many years and I rarely encountered this checkbox in the wild, don't remember implementing it even once. I mean the choice itself is very ambiguous. It is supposed to mean that the login session will only live for the duration of the current browser session if I uncheck it. But for a user (and for me to…

It's basically the expiration date on the cookie that keeps you logged in. Very common on forums and the like, and some even let you select how long you want the session to last.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#174

Post by layer8 »

debugnik wrote: post #164
layer8 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn’t workable for chat apps, at the very least on mobile. And that’s the most-used text entry interface that users nowadays grow up with. So I think you need to make an exception for such applications.

Mobile makes this much easier actually, send can be a different button on the UI than the newline button on the touch keyboard without having to teach this to users. That's exactly how my phone is currently configured at least.

I don’t understand what difference you are seeing. On the desktop you would have a UI button as well, and likewise a key on the keyboard.

The difference I’m referring to is that Ctrl+Enter is arguably acceptable on the desktop, but has no equivalent on touch keyboards on mobile.

Regarding the UI button, the way many people chat they would consider it too much friction to have to tap a button above the keyboard for every send — more friction than Ctrl+Enter is on the desktop,

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#175

Post by userbinator »

zahlman wrote: post #144
ryandrake wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen one that actually works. It seems like whether or not I check them, the next time I log into [every site] I have to re log in.

Really? I don't think I've ever seen one that doesn't work. What sites are you using where you encounter this? Have you checked your cookie settings?

Seconded. Your browser is probably set to clear cookies on close.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#176

Post by lexicality »

mbesto wrote: post #127
JojoFatsani wrote: post #24

Most software is not designed by intelligent and thoughtful people anymore. It is designed by hastily promoted middle manager PM/Product type people who, as has been mentioned elsewhere, simply were not around when thoughtful human interface design was borderline mandatory for efficiency’s sake. There is incompetence and there is also malevolence in the encouragement of dark patterns by the revenue side of the busine…

This is reductionist and myopic. I've personally been through building forms online and it's hell to try to find consensus on perhaps the most common forms used online. Let's take a credit card form: - Do I let the user copy and paste values in? - Do I let them use IE6? - Do I need to test for the user using an esotoric browser (Brave) with an esoteric password manager (KeePassXC)? - Do I make it accessible for someo…

Funny, I'd assume we'd got consensus on that one.

- Anyone who recommends disabling paste as a security feature is a fraud

- Doing UA sniffing is always a mistake

- If the user's browser doesn't support `autocomplete="cc-number"` then they're already used to it not working, you don't need to care about it

- You should always make your form as accessible as possible regardless of if the user is a robot or visually impaired

- Making your website intentionally inaccessible may be a federal crime in the USA as the ADA doesn't care what you think about openclaw.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#177

Post by userbinator »

ceejayoz wrote: post #37
readitalready wrote: post #35

This is a really huge and a fundamental flaw in AI-driven design. AI-driven design is completely inconsistent. If you re-ran an AI generated layout, even with the same prompt, the output for a user interface will look completely different between two runs.

You can steer it towards reusable components, though. Find a run you like, and build off that.

You definitely need to filter if you use AI. Looking at all the vibe-coded creations that are showing up these days has changed my mind from "AI-generated code is bad" to "the one using the AI is doing a bad job of it".

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#179

Post by debugnik »

layer8 wrote: post #174
debugnik wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile makes this much easier actually, send can be a different button on the UI than the newline button on the touch keyboard without having to teach this to users. That's exactly how my phone is currently configured at least.

I don’t understand what difference you are seeing. On the desktop you would have a UI button as well, and likewise a key on the keyboard. The difference I’m referring to is that Ctrl+Enter is arguably acceptable on the desktop, but has no equivalent on touch keyboards on mobile. Regarding the UI button, the way many people chat they would consider it too much friction to have to tap a button above the keyboard for ev…

No one uses the UI button to send a message on the desktop though. Everyone just presses Return to send, which is the most common need, and then once in a while realise they need to enter a newline without sending, for which there isn't a button so they need to learn how.

Mobile doesn't necessarily have this issue because it can show the send button and the newline button at the same time and they're equally accessible.

Regarding your edit:

> they would consider it too much friction to have to tap a button above the keyboard for every send

My finger travels almost the same distance from the home row to hit the send button above the upper right corner of the keyboard as the newline button on the lower right. I've been doing this for ages.

Re: Bring Back Idiomatic Design (2023)

#180

Post by suzzer99 »

bfbf wrote: post #51
JojoFatsani wrote: post #24

Most software is not designed by intelligent and thoughtful people anymore. It is designed by hastily promoted middle manager PM/Product type people who, as has been mentioned elsewhere, simply were not around when thoughtful human interface design was borderline mandatory for efficiency’s sake. There is incompetence and there is also malevolence in the encouragement of dark patterns by the revenue side of the busine…

It’s amazing how many blank stares I get when I, as mobile engineer, tell stakeholders that we shouldn’t just implement some random interface idea they thought up in the shower and we instead need design input! “But why can’t you just do it?” Because I recognise the importance of consistent UX and an IA that can actually be followed. Just like developers, (proper) designers solve problems, an we need to stop asking t…

An underrated senior engineer skill is saving stakeholders from their own worst impulses.
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