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Getting things “done” in large tech companies

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171–180 of 228 posts

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But usually it makes sense to "err on the side of overengineering". Because (limited) overengineering merely means some development effort was wasted, while underengineering can easily mean years of painful tech debt that is an order of magnitude or two more expensive than the wasted effort from overengineering. In our case there was a lot of overengineering by novices, so a lot of the tech debt involves unwinding…

I would guess underengineering (quick and dirty solutions) leads to a lot more tech debt in expectation than overengineering.

It's neither: Underengineering will lead to unmaintainable spaghetti code. Overengineering will also lead to unmaintainable code, but it's more like lasagna.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#172

Is this sentiment the reason why a lot of "engineers" will provide terrible quality in code / tests (lack thereof) / documentation / etc.? If all that matters that someone at the top sees it and is happy about it at this specific moment in time, why bother writing code that can last and doesn't leave behind an absolute unmaintainable ball of mud? We don't need gold plating and yet billions could be saved by having in…

More and more you run into people who simply don't care about craft and quality. I can already hear the chorus of people that will scream "I'm not paid enough to care" or "it's just a job for some people", and those things are often true; but, nonetheless, people used to take much greater care in their craft even when they were paid less. There was a sense that, even if it was just a job, it should be done well. A ce…

Why be a professional brush removal specialist when you can be a professional Fire Fighter?

There's software engineers and there's enterprise software developers and companies tend to want more of the latter than the former.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#173
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like the parent would have accomplished nothing in the 10 years. I think they are just talking about framing it in language palatable to the interviewer across the table.

Even in the most dysfunctional organizations you can't spend 10 years doing nothing. GP was achieving what their bosses asked of them. It's just that it didn't align with their own professional goals of improving the product they work on.

Sorry, 20 years experience of actually doing things here. I've spent 10 of those years now doing consulting with everyone from 3-person pre-series-A startups all the way up to the Fortune 50.

Let me unequivocal: you can spend 30-40 years at a company doing absolutely nothing while getting paid for it.

Do not let anyone try to convince you otherwise. I've seen such much unethical bloodsucking in my career that at this point I wouldn't mind seeing a few companies collapse under the weight of their own karma.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More and more you run into people who simply don't care about craft and quality. I can already hear the chorus of people that will scream "I'm not paid enough to care" or "it's just a job for some people", and those things are often true; but, nonetheless, people used to take much greater care in their craft even when they were paid less. There was a sense that, even if it was just a job, it should be done well. A ce…

> A certain sensibility of care and craftsmanship has faded away. It got replaced with professionalism , as in "being a professional", which nowadays seems to mean prioritizing business needs above all. Caring about quality and craftsmanship is not professional - it's just not being economical with company time and money. It's better for the business for dev teams to tick features off a list as quickly as they can, b…

It sure makes children cry when we talk about quality. Thing is, who holds the truth with respect to quality and craftmanship? And how to identify the person which will improve quality ? Which path is best to follow ?

I inherited a failed project, where each team member developped a repo. Nothing is unified, and it's a big architectural mess. Nothing really stands out, but god did I hear them crying about giving them time to build quality software.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least the pay is alright. I don't know why but this part of your comment really stuck out to me. I have a whole different take on getting stuff done specifically at big tech companies, mainly that being "stagnant" is not such a bad thing at a place like Google or MS. Say you're like an L-whatever at one of these big tech companies and you bring home say $300k/yr. You don't live in a HCOL so the pay is astronomic…

>you bring home say $300k/yr. You don't live in a HCOL Oh, I didn't know we were fantasizing about 2022. > you can still say you spent 10 years working at MS or Google and that would get you red carpet treatment just about anywhere. well, not in 2025. Market is rough and it's all topsy tuvrvy out there, with lots of companies pretending to hire but not. >If I was at one of these big tech companies and someone told me…

I don't think this world exists anymore. A lot of people I know are stressed out of their minds for the last few years by being way overworked and under constant threat of a layoff. I'm not talking about startups, I'm talking about Big Tech Corp. But I guess the mythical coasting engineer making a big tech salary that everyone talks about will never go out of style.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess underengineering (quick and dirty solutions) leads to a lot more tech debt in expectation than overengineering.

It's neither: Underengineering will lead to unmaintainable spaghetti code. Overengineering will also lead to unmaintainable code, but it's more like lasagna.

Very nicely put

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people are comfortable collecting a paycheck despite providing little value. I'm not.

Do you like working with those people? That's part of it.

Some of them I do, some not. They generally believe it's their bosses' responsibility to make sure their work is valuable. I guess that makes sense, but I'd like to own that responsibility myself.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess underengineering (quick and dirty solutions) leads to a lot more tech debt in expectation than overengineering.

It's neither: Underengineering will lead to unmaintainable spaghetti code. Overengineering will also lead to unmaintainable code, but it's more like lasagna.

in my experience both are more like nachos :)

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#179

Is this sentiment the reason why a lot of "engineers" will provide terrible quality in code / tests (lack thereof) / documentation / etc.? If all that matters that someone at the top sees it and is happy about it at this specific moment in time, why bother writing code that can last and doesn't leave behind an absolute unmaintainable ball of mud? We don't need gold plating and yet billions could be saved by having in…

I think that’s part of it. I think the other half of the equation is the engineer isn’t planning to work for any company long enough to need to deal with the results of what might happen in the future. If they have spent their whole career job hopping, they may have never learned the hard lessons from some decisions they’ve made. They think they did the right thing, but never saw the result, so they keep repeating the same mistakes.

This is my general theory, as someone with nearly 20 years at the same company, who has seen many people come and go who repeat the same mistakes again and again. They often have a certain arrogance that comes from never having dealt with their own failings. Or it may be false bravado to hide their fear; I’ve seen that one too.

I spent a good 12 years rolling with the punches and adopting every change that came my way, wondering why some others were resistant to change. Now I get it. While I think we do still need to grow and evolve, the change for the sake of change gets old. This is especially true when the change ignores the underlying root problems and bakes them into the new systems. If we aren’t going to solve the hard problems, what’s the point? I want to actually fix the stuff, not just add yet another coat of lipstick on the pig.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#180

Is this sentiment the reason why a lot of "engineers" will provide terrible quality in code / tests (lack thereof) / documentation / etc.? If all that matters that someone at the top sees it and is happy about it at this specific moment in time, why bother writing code that can last and doesn't leave behind an absolute unmaintainable ball of mud? We don't need gold plating and yet billions could be saved by having in…

More and more you run into people who simply don't care about craft and quality. I can already hear the chorus of people that will scream "I'm not paid enough to care" or "it's just a job for some people", and those things are often true; but, nonetheless, people used to take much greater care in their craft even when they were paid less. There was a sense that, even if it was just a job, it should be done well. A ce…

I agree that this attitude shift has taken place, but I would theorize (can't prove it, because history isn't an experimental science) that this is a symptom of the larger revolution in our global political economy in the last several decades.

In a world of job-for-life employers and defined benefit employer pensions, it makes sense to optimize for craft to a greater extent (because you can build a reputation at your company as a maverick whatever-you-are and therefore get assigned to the most fun projects) and there is little incentive for resume padding. Also, if your management is from the older operations-focused school, they may have some genuine interest in the quality (or, at minimum, the efficiency) with which you do your work.

With increased velocity of employer-hopping and financialized retirement savings (401ks instead of pensions), it now makes little sense to try and build a reputation in your company. Even if you stay for decades, your colleagues will rotate around you and its therefore almost impossible to build a reputation as a craftsman. Also, without a defined-benefit pension, you are increasingly incentivized to over-save for your retirement (even if you would only like to target a modest amount of retirement income, the only way to achieve this for sure is to have an enormous amount of savings). Finally, your management now has no interest in operations at all. Instead, they are all in on the "theory of the firm" which among other things is meant to justify a make-the-stock-go-up-no-matter-what strategy.

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