Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#171

Post by Telemakhos » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:30 PM UTC

drpossum wrote: post #137

Telemakhos wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data business in the US was not developed by “building institutions” through centralized government projects but by private enterprise. There is a fundamental difference in mindset regarding the relative importance of the public and private sectors between the two regions, and I suspect that difference underlies the stark difference between the US and EU in terms of tech companies. The US has Apple, Microsoft, Am…

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I do. These companies offer me choices and compete for my business. I can deploy to AWS (Amazon), Azure (MS), Google Cloud, or other competitors. My business will go to the one who gives me the best results for the least money. If they fail to provide me the services I want at a price that seems reasonable, or if I'm unhappy with them for any other reason, I can take my business elsewhere. Freedom and consent lie at the heart of private enterprise.

On the other hand, when a government tells me that I can't use the services I want to use and cannot trade with the people I want to trade with because of politics, and that I have to use different services because they're located in a particular region and favored by the government, that's not freedom, nor is it consensual.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#172

Post by crote » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:30 PM UTC

anvarik wrote: post #140

> there will be no Dutch expertise left I'm curious about the kind of existing expertise they are referring to

Ever heard of ASML? NXP? Philips? Booking.com? ElasticSearch? Adyen? Messagebird? Just Eat Takeaway?

Just because you are not familiar with the expertise doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#173

Post by dralley » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:31 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #82

damnitbuilds wrote: post #8

Yeah, that Military-Industrial Complex thing that we hated? Well, now we want one.

The dislike is for the influence, not the existence of a military industry. See Eisenhower's original speech: > we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.

Exactly, everybody misunderstands this.

Eisenhower realized that we were crossing a threshold where the US would need a specialized military industry and equipment stockpiles, where you couldn't just mobilize and convert civilian production to military production over the course of 2-3 years anymore like we did in WWII. Should war with the USSR break out, things were going to move too fast for that to be viable, and you simply couldn't take your eye off the ball with respect to developing new technologies either.

The military industrial complex during the Cold War is like the tech giants in the 2010s. Everybody understands their importance, and yet you still have to be vigilant about letting them leverage that into too much political power. That's the point he was trying to get across. The MIC would be highly necessary, but vigilance was required to avoid letting their interests push the government around.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#174

Post by atwrk » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:31 PM UTC

egorfine wrote: post #109

rad_gruchalski wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it’s possible in Germany. What problems do you have in Poland?

> Oh, it’s possible in Germany Of course. How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't. Otherwise sure it's possible.

> How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't.

It's easy to fire employees in Germany (especially in small shops), e.g. when they steal, are always late, are badmouthing colleagues, are talking about company internals, are insolent to customers, deliver bad work, and on and on.

You simply have to follow a defined process (basically at least one written warning for the same thing before firing).

What you can't do is having a Musk style temper tantrum and fire someone at will because you feel like that.

Source: I had to fire multiple people in Germany.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#175

Post by madsbuch » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #163

madsbuch wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers do lie - it would be nice to have a breakdown of this. Maybe the difference, 16% points, is what affords the European a fair treatment upon illness where half of that is "shareholder value" in the US. Feel free to link the study you used so we don't just have to trust some internet rando.

Just google 'percentage of GDP driven by government spending' for your country of choice. This is some of the most basic and widely available economic data that exists. https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/FRA/JPN/... (edited my original comment to include the source as well)

Common source, great!

First, you seems to conflate "free markets" (Whatever free means here?) with decentralized spending. How does that make sense?

And more importantly: If we can agree that a democracy ought to be an aspiration for a society, and a functioning democracy requires some minimum level of equality, how will you ensure that under your "free market"?

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#176

Post by bayindirh » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

bloopernova wrote: post #169

bayindirh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LibreOffice works for 99.99% of the cases where Microsoft Office is being used. Moreover, NextCloud offers a free "LibreOffice on the web" capability if you prefer. Oh, BTW. Nextcloud is also nice. Very nice. Edit: Looks like Owncloud guys have arrived (just joking, I like them equally).

I got access to a NextCloud instance as part of my Hetzner storage. Setting up access for my wife was easy. Adding "apps" to my nextcloud instance was easy. Sharing storage, playing with a Kanban board, editing documents, it all just works. I'm very impressed with nextcloud, I had no idea it was so good!

Installing it on a bare metal server is equally easy. Not a walk in the park, but half a day at most, with server optimizations and polish.

It updates nicely too. I'm managing one for ~4 years now, and it's painless.

Nobody calls for me for support either. I think this is, good?

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#177

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:32 PM UTC

wolframhempel wrote: post #121

mykowebhn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would love to see a ditching of not just tech in favor of homegrown options. I admit that I was initially on the globalization bandwagon, but in hindsight it resulted in products being made in countries with the cheapest costs which led to a decrease in quality and the destruction of smaller, more local businesses. Go to a tourist area anywhere in the world and you'll be confronted by the same businesses--Starbucks,…

Making more stuff in the countries with the cheapest costs also means that people in those countries are being lifted out of poverty. China's GDP per capita went from ~350USD in 1990 to 12.500USD in 2023 and similar growth happened for India, Bangladesh and lots of other poorer countries. Globalization brought affordable goods to wealthy nations and better living standards to poorer nations. In addition, closer trade…

Meanwhile people in the West are being dropped into poverty.

The environmental costs of globalisation are (literally) horrific.

And a surprising amount of it is useless makework - disposable "fashion", faddy toys, and shoddy consumer goods that break after a couple of years.

As for lowering the risk of armed conflict - how's that working out for everyone?

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#178

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:34 PM UTC

everfrustrated wrote: post #87

This would be the same country (The Netherlands) that is prohibiting construction of new data centers... Really joined up thinking!

This is because our energy grid is full, American companies have come in to take advantage of our investments in green energy by buying up capacity of newly built offshore windmill parks subsidised by the Dutch and EU governments [0][1], and they're using millions of liters of drinking water to cool their datacenters [2].

Sure, they bring in some money, but is it worth it? We have carbon emission goals to meet as well, but if the projects intended to replace carbon emitting power generators are used for datacenters instead, that won't happen. And using clean drinking water, which is treated, used, and dumped again in surface water, is just a huge waste of our aquifers, especially with climate change. We already saw the water companies reduce pressure and trigger other such water saving measures a few years ago when the stores ran empty, why should a data center take precedence over people? They should pay a premium for this kind of thing.

[0] https://nos.nl/artikel/2350450-opening-grootste-windpark-van... (translate link: https://nos-nl.translate.goog/artikel/2350450-opening-groots...)

[1] https://news.microsoft.com/2017/10/09/microsoft-ge-sign-agre...

[2] https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/drought-stricken-...

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#179

Post by wolframhempel » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:34 PM UTC

elcritch wrote: post #166

wolframhempel wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making more stuff in the countries with the cheapest costs also means that people in those countries are being lifted out of poverty. China's GDP per capita went from ~350USD in 1990 to 12.500USD in 2023 and similar growth happened for India, Bangladesh and lots of other poorer countries. Globalization brought affordable goods to wealthy nations and better living standards to poorer nations. In addition, closer trade…

I’m all for poorer countries getting a slice of the pie. Long term I’m not convinced it’s beneficial for the whole population of richer countries to continue, but rather only the elites of those countries. The amount income inequality has skyrocketed in recent decades sort of undermines the theoretical benefits economists love to tout. Nowadays manufacturing does not have to be uncompetitive. Advances in automation b…

It's especially beneficial for the poorest people in the developed nation. In the 1940 US, the poorest 20% spent almost their entire income on basic needs, such as food and basic clothing. Today, the poorest 20% can still afford smartphones and flat screen TVs, clothes and even vacations. Yes, globalization has massively increased market sizes, making the richest much richer. But it also made the poorest much richer.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#180

Post by SEJeff » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 1:34 PM UTC

wolframhempel wrote: post #121

mykowebhn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would love to see a ditching of not just tech in favor of homegrown options. I admit that I was initially on the globalization bandwagon, but in hindsight it resulted in products being made in countries with the cheapest costs which led to a decrease in quality and the destruction of smaller, more local businesses. Go to a tourist area anywhere in the world and you'll be confronted by the same businesses--Starbucks,…

Making more stuff in the countries with the cheapest costs also means that people in those countries are being lifted out of poverty. China's GDP per capita went from ~350USD in 1990 to 12.500USD in 2023 and similar growth happened for India, Bangladesh and lots of other poorer countries. Globalization brought affordable goods to wealthy nations and better living standards to poorer nations. In addition, closer trade…

> closer trade ties lower the likelihood of armed conflict

This was 100% what Europe believed and the Merkel administration in Germany more than anyone. Not to bring politics into HN intentionally, but I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and threats of invading Poland, Finland, and Germany from Russian spokesmen or MPs kind of throws cold water on this theory.

No matter how well meaning you are, you can't expect dictators and "strong men" to ever act in anything but bad faith. It is time the west realizes this and acts accordingly. As an American, I'm sad to see the "de-americaning" happening due to those here who elected a bad administration, but I can't say it is surprising. Ultimately, a less weak and less dependent on the US Europe is a net good for the world. Europe collectively being able to put a check on the US forces the US to not do stupid things, so this is good long term.