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Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

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Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#121

Post by wolframhempel »

mykowebhn wrote: post #95
stego-tech wrote: post #12

Called it, again . Data sovereignty is the true trend of the next decade. Not Quantum, not AI, but the new multi-pole world order divesting from Americentric technologies and back into the sort of locally-grown economies that children of the Cold War would be familiar with. Local vendors serving local needs with a focus on regional, not global, scale and service. Us Cassandra types have been screaming for years that…

Would love to see a ditching of not just tech in favor of homegrown options. I admit that I was initially on the globalization bandwagon, but in hindsight it resulted in products being made in countries with the cheapest costs which led to a decrease in quality and the destruction of smaller, more local businesses. Go to a tourist area anywhere in the world and you'll be confronted by the same businesses--Starbucks,…

Making more stuff in the countries with the cheapest costs also means that people in those countries are being lifted out of poverty. China's GDP per capita went from ~350USD in 1990 to 12.500USD in 2023 and similar growth happened for India, Bangladesh and lots of other poorer countries. Globalization brought affordable goods to wealthy nations and better living standards to poorer nations. In addition, closer trade ties lower the likelihood of armed conflict.

Smart wealthy countries understand these benefits and move their own economies to higher value creating activities like deep research, high tech development or financial services. Less smart wealthy countries try to erect trade barriers to force a return of uncompetitive manufacturing...

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#122

Post by vladms »

maciejw wrote: post #83

Europe's problem in this area seems to be inability to build a mechanism to realize large, unprofitable projects. It looks like the whole continent operates on thin margins, and has no resources set aside to pursue strategic initiatives. US is building its pile of resources by capitalising on its current advantage, but also by pushing larger and larger parts of society into poverty. Europe is maybe more fair, but ult…

There are lots of people (both in and out) perceiving Europe in different ways, but is this a result of facts or of repetition of some ideas in the news?

Can you give without searching 5 examples of large unprofitable projects in Europe and the USA?

Each time I look for examples, I find more than I knew before. And anyhow the purpose is not for the project to be unprofitable or large! If (just as an example) Europe obtains 50% of the result with 25% of the investment is that bad? I (as European) also want to live a good life, I don't care that Europe is that first at throwing money around like crazy.

And is it about size in monetary value or impact? Anybody talks about UK Bio Bank? No, while the impact on healthcare is amazing and they don't even try to make it for profit (ofc lots of US companies are crazy to use it)...

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#123

Post by 4ggr0 »

egorfine wrote: post #109
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it’s possible in Germany. What problems do you have in Poland?

> Oh, it’s possible in Germany Of course. How do I fire an employee? That's right, I don't. Otherwise sure it's possible.

always amusing when people realize that workers have and deserve rights in other parts of the world.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#125

Post by maciejw »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #107
maciejw wrote: post #83

Europe's problem in this area seems to be inability to build a mechanism to realize large, unprofitable projects. It looks like the whole continent operates on thin margins, and has no resources set aside to pursue strategic initiatives. US is building its pile of resources by capitalising on its current advantage, but also by pushing larger and larger parts of society into poverty. Europe is maybe more fair, but ult…

Europe isn't that far behind and often produces new technologies. It has some of the best universities and research labs in the world. The problem is the uncompetitive business environment.

How do we make it more competitive? Work 996 like the Chinese? Have no maternity leave like Americans? It would certainly make us more competitive...

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#126

Post by hsuduebc2 »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #106
hsuduebc2 wrote: post #89

It always surprises me that people only act when a problem becomes undeniable, rather than preventing it in the first place. In a country with a voting system and power structure like US, where a single person can abruptly shift the entire nation's direction, this has always been a security flaw for others. It's the same as relying on Russian gas, people pretend the worst can't happen because it would be harmful to e…

Reminder that Russian gas is not a closed topic. Several European countries are still financing Russia's war economy by buying Russian gas. There is no 100% embargo ... yet. I see a lot of people discussing this as if we are all running on windmills and nuclear, it is absolutely not the case... yet.

I know, but it's always former Russian colonies that fall for their propaganda—partly because some still see Russia as an "old friend." These countries are also much poorer than those in the West, which is pretty ironic since the Russian gas they get isn’t even that much cheaper. It’s more about having the infrastructure in place and simply being used to living next to the Russians.

Nord Stream 2 is beyond repair—just like Russia’s reputation for the coming decades. There may be trade again in the future, but they will never be the sole supplier again.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#127

Post by Telemakhos »

maciejw wrote: post #83

Europe's problem in this area seems to be inability to build a mechanism to realize large, unprofitable projects. It looks like the whole continent operates on thin margins, and has no resources set aside to pursue strategic initiatives. US is building its pile of resources by capitalising on its current advantage, but also by pushing larger and larger parts of society into poverty. Europe is maybe more fair, but ult…

The data business in the US was not developed by “building institutions” through centralized government projects but by private enterprise. There is a fundamental difference in mindset regarding the relative importance of the public and private sectors between the two regions, and I suspect that difference underlies the stark difference between the US and EU in terms of tech companies. The US has Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta, X, all of which innovate to offer products appealing enough that customers are willing to use or buy them in a free and consensual transaction (which does not require any impoverishment). If they fail at innovating to appeal to customers, they go bankrupt. EU institutions funded through taxpayer money have less incentive to produce goods and services that appeal to taxpayers. I’m not sure where “impoverishment” fits into this at all.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#128

Post by ben_w »

SecretDreams wrote: post #74
api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't like the politics giving rise to this, de-globalization combined with the great social media unbundling and other trends means we might finally see decentralization be a major trend (outside of the cryptocurrency ghetto). Overall I think this is a good thing. It could mean the end of the monolithic closed SaaS era, which is the absolute worst possible model for software if you care about privacy or any…

There is tech decentralization and and manufacturing decentralization. Both are being treating equally right now; however, frankly, they probably shouldn't. Data is proving to be valuable and should only be managed by very trusted allies - countries with similar ideals that truly are buddies. Manufacturing, imo, makes a lot more sense to be spread based on strengths and weaknesses and the logistics benefits (localize…

> Data is proving to be valuable and should only be managed by very trusted allies - countries with similar ideals that truly are buddies.

Outside Trump — not all Republicans, specifically Trump — the USA was as close to being Europe's buddy as I think it's possible for nations to be.

I'm not convinced nations can actually be buddies, but even with my cynicism, Bush's administration was Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, while Trump is behaving like each "deal" is a completely independent Prisoner's Dilemma.

And yes, that's despite how much we mocked GWB (I even got quoted on the national news for doing so!), and despite how America mocked itself with Team America: World Police, that version of the country still saw itself as needing to go through the motions of friendship.

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#129

Post by drpossum »

DaveMcMartin wrote: post #69

TBH, while I feel like this is the way, I’m noticing more and more politicians using this as a way to simply gather more votes with a "cause US bad" angle. Companies are eager to get your money, so they'll try to get an "EU made" label and use it as marketing as hard as they can, even if 90% of their operation happens outside the EU. And the way they talk, it seems like decoupling from the US is something trivial don…

> I’m noticing more and more politicians using this as a way to simply gather more votes with a "cause US bad"

You typed that like they're wrong

Re: Dutch Parliament: Time to ditch US tech for homegrown options

#130

Post by andrewflnr »

tossandthrow wrote: post #102
xbmcuser wrote: post #43

Lets see if they put cash where there mouth is they should have been pouring billions of dollars into opensource software instead of paying Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Oracle etc in the first place. Europe countries have been client states of the USA for decades and just do whatever USA wanted first time USA has hurt their own interests so are waking up to the fact.

I was pondering in why the EU never really got targeted directly like Canada and Mexico with Trumps tarifs. I think this is it. And it would be incredibly bad for US tech billionaires if the EU started to move home all these contracts.

Nothing so rational, I'm sure. Tariffing Canada was already insane and he didn't care.
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