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Updates to H-1B

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Re: Updates to H-1B

#171

Post by rbanffy »

patrickhogan1 wrote: post #16

Ah, classic regulatory theater. The administration, after 4 years of not introducing these changes, is now suddenly scrambling to roll them out. They’re dropping them right before a major transition, with an implementation timeline conveniently set for after the transition. It’s a clever little maneuver. When the inevitable reversal happens, they can show up at fundraising galas telling donors, “We tried! We were so…

> The administration, after 4 years of not introducing these changes

They might have spent the last four years negotiating what exactly the changes would ideally be. Government doesn’t work well with the “let’s see what sticks approach”.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#172

Post by [deleted] »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #168
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #161

A supposed shortage of qualified US applicants for tech jobs, especially software developers, doesn't jibe with the huge numbers of US developers currently looking for work, including highly experienced older workers suffering from age discrimination. I'd be surprised if more than 5-10% of H-1B positions are ones where the hiring company has even looked for US applicants.

There is a shortage of applicants willing to work at what companies want to pay. If it is taking more than 30-60 days for workers to find a role, there are enough workers domestically.

[deleted]

Re: Updates to H-1B

#173

Post by PittleyDunkin »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #168
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #161

A supposed shortage of qualified US applicants for tech jobs, especially software developers, doesn't jibe with the huge numbers of US developers currently looking for work, including highly experienced older workers suffering from age discrimination. I'd be surprised if more than 5-10% of H-1B positions are ones where the hiring company has even looked for US applicants.

There is a shortage of applicants willing to work at what companies want to pay. If it is taking more than 30-60 days for workers to find a role, there are enough workers domestically.

> There is a shortage of applicants willing to work at what companies want to pay.

That and companies are just hilariously bad at finding workers they want to hire for nebulous reasons. I have no doubt even if my company hired 95% of the workers it had marked down as "no hire" they'd be able to squeeze a salary's of value worth out of each of them (well, if management is competent, which it tends to not be). I'm sure those of us who've been around long enough can all attest to some side of seeing form of this dysfunction. I'm more than happy to reject them for selfish reasons, of course, like "I don't want this person on my team" or "this person seems like an asshole" or "I don't want to teach this person their third language after java and typescript". Etc.

I mean there are terrible interview candidates out there, but the people who literally can't code at all tend to be easy to filter out.

I'm curious if there's any way to observe the salary margins that separate the top of the labor market from the bottom. Surely there are. That would probably give a big signal as to how much undue attention is given to, e.g., Senior vs Junior developers and American workers vs H1Bs. I'd put money that some of this complaining about lack of labor is actually not wanting to hire fresh grads and eat the cost of training when they'd be just fine. (Also the H1B thing, but that's already discussed to death)

Re: Updates to H-1B

#174

Post by returningfory2 »

whatshisface wrote: post #80
crmd wrote: post #68

It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?

Hypothetically it exists to allow companies to hire singular overseas experts like von Braun or Einstein that don't have domestic equivalents. It has become totally accepted to lie on the application though and now it is used to hire Java developers.

This piece of misinformation seems to be trotted out every time H-1B is discussed. H-1B is not for "extraordinary ability", the O-1 is. The H-1B is just designed for regular workers in a "specialty occupation". This is how Congress designed it in the Immigration and Nationality Act.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#175

Post by sunshowers »

remarkEon wrote: post #91
crmd wrote: post #68

It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. Other than that, seemingly, STEM roles are the only industry where the laws of supply and demand do not apply, and a positive supply shock of something does not, for some reason, drive down the price.

Have you engaged with the Card vs Borjas literature at all? We learn about the world by studying it, not by simply thinking about it from one's armchair.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#176

Post by danans »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #116
crmd wrote: post #68

It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?

You are mixing up purpose and effect. The purpose is to provide more and cheaper STEM workers. The effect is downward pressure on wages. Phrased differently, the goal is to help industry, not hurt workers. Hurting some workers is an acceptable cost, not the goal. One idea is that having a thriving industrial ecosystem helps those same workers more than the downward pressure.

> phrased differently, the goal is to help industry, not hurt workers. hurting some workers is an acceptable cost, not the goal.

The phrase "help industry" has many dimensions. The simplest of course is that by increasing labor supply and suppressing wages it increases profit margins, rewarding shareholders.

Another important function is that by having more workers overall in the US, it increases the productivity of the domestic industry itself, due to increased competition for jobs driving up the productivity of the average worker. This in turn makes the industry more competitive vs its equivalents in other countries.

The average worker (whether permanent resident or temporary/H1B) who doesn't have significant investments likely doesn't receive much of those productivity gains, since they mostly go to capital owners.

Long term, it boosts returns to capital while capping returns to labor, the same trend noted by Thomas Piketty some years back.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#177

Post by petesergeant »

carlosjobim wrote: post #129
ritcgab wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guy who born with natural citizenship is too privileged to imagine how hard it is to get a green card.

Everybody is born with natural citizenship.

You should take a moment to look up what “stateless” means

Re: Updates to H-1B

#178

Post by paxys »

shin_lao wrote: post #167
ramarnat wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd still have to comply with the H1-B rules for the job you are petitioning for, like the duties you are performing, the salary requirements etc. And the legal costs of doing the petition. Now, misuse could come if you are independently wealthy and can self fund, but at the end of the day if you are doing that in the US, the economy still benefits.

There are better visas and even green cards if you're wealthy.

Exactly. You can literally buy a green card with a ~$500K “investment”. No need to jump through H-1B hoops.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#179

Post by rbanffy »

crmd wrote: post #68

It’s never been clear to me why this program exists in the first place, other than to put downward pressure on US STEM wages. What am I missing?

It’s also designed to attract talent from other countries. You didn’t have to invest in their education, so that part comes for free.

Re: Updates to H-1B

#180

Post by throwaway7783 »

zer8k wrote: post #74
duped wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ah yes the classic "huwhite people and muh racism" gambit. It's tired. H1Bs are gamed to the point of uselessness. Most companies internally post H1B job offerings so people are aware. I've yet to see one with a competitive salary. They are used to source cheaper labor and avoid paying actual Americans the fair wage they deserve. The last 15-20 years of tech has slowly seen the InfoSys-ization of the tech economy. I…

I have been on H1B forever now, and my salaries have been more or on par with the role. I tend to agree there is a lot of H1B misuse, especially by large Indian consulting firms. This needs to be curtailed.

But, there may be 300,000 unemployed tech workers. While I also find it hard to believe none fit the bill, I believe most don't. So many are out of random bootcamps, self proclaimed programmers who can't solve fizzbuzz. I also have not seen any H1B in my career that is good and willing to take a 60% haircut. In my own company, they are the highest paid and are grumpy we are not paying more. They are all really good engineers too. Heck, when I was looking to move to the US, I refused tons of low paying jobs. When we opened up backend programming jobs, only a handful American citizens even applied. We hired one of them, while we needed 4. The rest didn't make it through the interview process. We also rejected tons of H1bs because they didnt make it through the process. Same salary range offered to H1Bs. And we are a fully remote. So I wonder where are these 300,000 unemployed tech workers.

Cut the fraud and it automatically becomes a decent program. Now, if one is entirely against the program of attracting foreign talent, thats a different discussion.

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