#BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban • Hacker News Board

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#171

Post by msabalau » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 1:47 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #83

tikhonj wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the problem, isn't it? Even if Google produces prior art, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did (although I haven't actually looked at the patents so I can't be 100% certain), the injunction would still exist. So yes, there is a well understood process for invalidating patents. And that is, no doubt, going to play a major role in the case. But all that comes after the problem itself--the injunction lasts…

"...instead of being nice..." There is the problem. Apple is a business, it doesn't exist for altruistic reasons. Neither does Google, no matter how vehemently they say that they do. As others have pointed out, there doesn't seem to be a boycott on Google for their part in the attempt to gain an import ban of the XBox or their support of the alleged abuse of FRAND patents, both by their newly acquired subsidiary. App…

All the early adopters already have their Xboxes. The iPhone is lame and tired, and there was nothing at Apple's WWDC that had any wow.

For the moment, the fun stuff is coming from the Android ecosystem, and Apple is getting in the way of people getting it. Hence the wrath of the crowd who adore new things, the ones that Apple used to care about, before they crossed the chasm and jumped the shark.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#172

Post by calinet6 » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 1:47 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #151

calinet6 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you put it that way, why the hell would Apple not try to get this injunction? Any public company in their right mind should take advantage of this sort of market advantage. The legal/patent system that allows this is broken, that's certain. But can we really blame Apple for using it to their advantage? It's sort of genius. Evil genius, but still...

Yes. I'd prefer to just leave the post at that, but to make a bit more of a contribution to discussion, fiduciary duty is a myth invented sometime in the 70s or 80s. No one has ever been sued for not maximizing the profits of the company the run. A corporation doesn't have to be evil, even if being evil were more profitable than being good. They can just choose to be less profitable and no one cares. Given the choice…

I absolutely agree with you, given the choice and the ideal world, I'd much rather live in a fair system where companies compete on the things that actually matter. Absolutely.

I just think we're fooling ourselves if we think that we can simply expect people to adhere to this with no tangible incentive, rather than build a system which has the desired result.

In other words, it's still the system that's broken. There are a lot of companies I'd like to boycott (and I certainly boycott and disagree with Apple's decision on this specific matter), but I don't blame the companies for trying to make money—regardless of "fiduciary duty" which is pretty irrelevant (I was just talking about the nature of companies to make money and dominate the market if possible; this would be true of any company, not necessarily just public companies with duty to shareholders).

This is a tough call, and I'm sure it was tough even for Apple's legal team. Is it worth tarnishing their image to attempt to hold a competitor from the market for another couple months? Looked at from a strictly logical standpoint, with profits enabling more technological developments and more production capacity, as well as more advertising and sales efforts, it just might be worth it.

You know that a whole team debated this and did dozens of calculations and eventually the call was made, but knowing Apple, this was no butt-hurt matter of principle. This was a market decision based on something they could do that would be beneficial for their company in the grand scheme of things.

Do I agree? Not really. I think the company's reputation is way more important than this injunction. But it's an exceedingly complex decision, based on many factors that I don't have information about, and they made a different decision. I honestly can't blame them for that.

It's easy to answer my question with a simple "yes." It hurts you. It doesn't feel right. Companies shouldn't be so impersonal. They should play nice. I know. We need to fix the system that allows despicable acts like this. But in the context, it makes perfect sense. "Blame" is not addressable here except to the system. (As is usually the case, but that's for another essay...)

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#173

Post by mistercow » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 1:50 PM UTC

tkazec wrote: post #69

ra wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scrolling down a bit doesn't help at all. Where's the pause button? That is unusable.

There's a big pause button at the very top right of the stream. Once paused, scrolling works great. How is that at all unusable?

You should never have to press a button to take a page out of an unusable default state, but if that's going to be, the button needs to not be lost in a pile of clutter.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#174

Post by calinet6 » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 1:51 PM UTC

przemelek wrote: post #102

X-Istence wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If consumers want the device they can simply purchase an Apple device. If Google did indeed violate the patents in question the features the user want are available in Apple's products. You mention first-mover advantage ... that is exactly what patents are supposed to grant, you invent something cool, you get a patent on it, and then YOU get exclusivity on that invention for X years so you can recoup your costs of R&…

Nope. It works slightly different, first companies like Motorola, Nokia, Samsung and others invested billions of dollars in creating telecommunication standards. Next those companies are forced to license patents for those technologies to Apple. Apple creates phone which base in 95% on technology created by those companies, they are adding several features like "slide to unlock" or "pinch to zoom" and patent it. Sams…

So, the takeaway is, "Damn, Apple is good at this capitalism game."

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#175

Post by raganesh » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 1:52 PM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #165

raganesh wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree on the offensive party part - in Feb 2012, Google/Motorola used a pager-era patent to get an injunction against multiple Apple devices[1] in Germany. Apple had to disable iCloud push email feature to get their products back on shelf. [1] http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/02/apple-faces-double-wham...

I am sorry, but given your submission history I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of the fact that Apple started suing Motorola in Germany first. http://www.fosspatents.com/2011/08/apple-is-also-suing-motor...

I do follow the patent law suites. In case of Apple vs. Motorola, it was in fact Motorola that set the ball rolling with its first suit in October 2010 in the US. It was the same fight over the same set of patents that has spilled over into German courts.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#176

Post by halostatue » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 1:56 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #151

calinet6 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you put it that way, why the hell would Apple not try to get this injunction? Any public company in their right mind should take advantage of this sort of market advantage. The legal/patent system that allows this is broken, that's certain. But can we really blame Apple for using it to their advantage? It's sort of genius. Evil genius, but still...

Yes. I'd prefer to just leave the post at that, but to make a bit more of a contribution to discussion, fiduciary duty is a myth invented sometime in the 70s or 80s. No one has ever been sued for not maximizing the profits of the company the run. A corporation doesn't have to be evil, even if being evil were more profitable than being good. They can just choose to be less profitable and no one cares. Given the choice…

I wish your statement about fiduciary duty were true. It's not a recent concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Company

“The Court held that a business corporation is organized primarily for the profit of the stockholders, as opposed to the community or its employees. The discretion of the directors is to be exercised in the choice of means to attain that end, and does not extend to the reduction of profits or the nondistribution of profits among stockholders in order to benefit the public, making the profits of the stockholders incidental thereto.

Because this company was in business for profit, Ford could not turn it into a charity. This was compared to a spoilation of the company's assets. The court therefore upheld the order of the trial court requiring that directors declare an extra dividend of $39 million.”

The Wikipedia article notes that it's not considered 'current' law in the U.S., but this was decided in the early 20th century (~1920).

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#177

Post by siglesias » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 2:00 PM UTC

I'm wondering what kind of institutional respect for IP and spirit of innovation would lead Samsung to whip up this UI?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGxYZXjXozc

Sure, one can argue that Samsung and Apple both look to a common ancestor for their ideas, but I think Samsung is more insidious than people are willing to admit here.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#178

Post by wsc981 » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 2:00 PM UTC

rsheridan6 wrote: post #162

briandear wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average person doesn't care. I'm in this industry and I barely care. Watching Google and Apple is like watching NBA players scuffling over the last bottle of champagne. The average person just wants to use their phone, update their Facebook and find out what Snooki is up too. A boycot organized on a site that the muggles have barely heard of over an issue that they don't give two shits about isn't going to affect…

True, but developers are more likely to care, and they matter a lot more than the average user. A lot of developers preferred not to use Microsoft products when MS was the evil empire, and there would probably be an MS monopoly now if they hadn't.

I'm not sure if that was true. Either way, there was money to be made on the Microsoft platform and even though I didn't like Microsoft and their practices myself, I did develop .NET software for a year of 3. At home I just used my preferred OS (Mac OS X) but a man has to make a living.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#179

Post by calinet6 » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 2:01 PM UTC

rsheridan6 wrote: post #159

calinet6 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who would write or respond to a boycott of Apple is already the sort who gets into flame wars against the company to begin with, so it is, as they say, "preaching to the choir." Not likely to have a big effect.

I've owned two MacBooks, a MacBook Pro, and two iPhones, but I won't now. No more. I had no particular reason to want to boycott them then before because they weren't behaving atrociously at that time. The kind of person who would boycott Apple now is the kind of person who would have boycotted Microsoft back in the day, which also happens to be the kind of person (or one kind of person) who would have bought Apple p…

You're right, it's going to tarnish their reputation. But I still find it hard to believe that you'd put aside product quality and preferences because of this. In a couple month's time you'll forget most of the case (and eventually the Galaxy Nexus will come to market anyway). In a year's time you'll be comparing products on technical merits alone. I can't say what your next purchase will be, but I'll bet it will be less affected by this emotional response than you expect.

Re: #BoycottApple trending on Google plus due to Galaxy Nexus ban

#180

Post by raganesh » Sun, Jul 01, 2012, 2:03 PM UTC

shawnee_ wrote: post #169

Something about Koh's overwhelming bias for Apple seems really suspicious. It's one thing to preeminently ban sales of product A for reason X, but to also ban sales of product B for reason Y where products A and B have the same parent, and where reasons X and Y are completely unrelated? Something is wrong with this picture. What else could be going on? Maybe I have a cynical view of humanity, but I spent a few minute…

If you are accusing her of bribery, that is a very serious allegation.

Imagine if such a thing happens and is eventually exposed. What a scandal would it be. I don't think any large company, let alone Apple, would want to be involved in any such mess.