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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#171

Post by TeaBrain »

satvikpendem wrote: post #52
TeaBrain wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repay what? The people of modern Egypt have no connection or inheritance claim to the ancient artifacts, other than their having been created in a similar place where the modern Egyptians are currently living. They don't even share a remotely similar culture. The same is true of many other places that had their artifacts collected, in that the people have no legal claim to the artifacts other than their having existe…

Indeed, it is even arguable whether they are even genetically similar to the ancient Egyptians, due to the migration of the Arabs from the peninsula when spreading Islam over time.

From what I've read, the Egyptian genetics are still relatively similar to Egyptians from several thousand years ago, due to the relatively small number of Arabs involved in the Arab conquest of Egypt. However, the only kinds of inheritance that I believe are strong are familial or cultural. I don't believe in broad umbrella genetic inheritance claims without any establishable familial connection. Beyond this, I think the idea of geographic artifact ownership claims, based solely on the geographic origin of artifacts, have little to no merit.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#172

Post by makeitdouble »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #170
makeitdouble wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks incredibly simple and clear to me, so I'm pretty curious about what is getting you lost, if you'd be inclined to expand.

What makes the UK a unique place with regard to slavery, as your original post implies?

It doesn't need to be unique, you can't just look at a dispute between the UK and another country and dismiss that other country on the base of an history of slavery.

PS: my question would be how many other countries you think were ahead of the UK in terms of trade slave when it was all the rage for European countries ?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#173

Post by luaybs »

jbjbjbjb wrote: post #152
luaybs wrote: post #140

The amount of pro-colonial sentiment in the thread here is baffling. The people that were colonized and stolen from have the right to do whatever they want with these artifacts, even if you believe they may not have the means, or will sell them to private collectors.

Why not just accept the situation as part of the ebb and flow of history? They certainly weren’t the first empires in history. I think a lot of the objection is more about nationalistic sentiment than anything else and I don’t feel it needs to be done to reclaim cultural heritage.

I will never accept colonialism in whatever way, shape, or form.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#174

Post by rayiner »

sangnoir wrote: post #147
gaoshan wrote: post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

> In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) That's a hard sell when the country that winds up with the artifacts was also the primary agitator of political, social and economic turmoil (you know, the usual colonial stuff). An arsonist shouldn't get to keep victims' heirlooms to "save them from the conflagration".

[flagged]

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#175

Post by Gud »

sangnoir wrote: post #147
gaoshan wrote: post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

> In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) That's a hard sell when the country that winds up with the artifacts was also the primary agitator of political, social and economic turmoil (you know, the usual colonial stuff). An arsonist shouldn't get to keep victims' heirlooms to "save them from the conflagration".

What did the Dutch do in Indonesia to spark social and economic turmoil? Genuinely curious.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#176

Post by defrost »

Gud wrote: post #175
sangnoir wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) That's a hard sell when the country that winds up with the artifacts was also the primary agitator of political, social and economic turmoil (you know, the usual colonial stuff). An arsonist shouldn't get to keep victims' heirlooms to "save them from the conflagration".

What did the Dutch do in Indonesia to spark social and economic turmoil? Genuinely curious.

Endless stamping of militarised boot on the neck of any that objected?

To clarify further, modern Indonesia includes some 17,000 islands that historically included almost as many different cultural variations.

The Dutch East Indies included (according to the Dutch) most of those islands and more.

The spice trade was a major revenue stream, so much so that one activity included destroying alternative sources of certain spices on islands that weren't part of the Dutch industrial spice pipeline - to avoid any chance of rivals from France, Germany, England, Spain, etc. sneaking in and getting their own cuttings to start rival plantations.

The VOC (under that name (or another later?)) were active in the region from 1600 - 1940 (ish) when the Japanese swept through and seized oil supplies, etc.

As for the rest; slavery, starting civil wars to divide and conquer, several waves of outright direct warring, destruction of libraries and buildings from local empires that went back centuries, .. the usual fun and games of colonial powers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies gives a bief outline.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#177

Post by krapp »

noworriesnate wrote: post #17
pfortuny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

Because they are more secure there. These are irreplaceable items. Pick your favorite cultural artifact, would you help move it to a more secure location if there was a lot of instability that could lead to it being destroyed? Even if that more secure location was a different country? I personally would.

I'm sure your keepsakes would be more secure in my safe deposit box but that doesn't give me the right to break into your house and take your shit.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#178

Post by krapp »

booleandilemma wrote: post #75

As always, if these things weren't taken and put in a museum in the first place, today they wouldn't even exist.

As always, the world doesn't owe you or anyone the artifacts of its cultures. They can be shared, but no one has the right to take them by force.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#179

Post by Log_out_ »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #10
pfortuny wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

The act of stealing was buying it from a local trader who considered it part of the heathen past.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#180

Post by Log_out_ »

eadmund wrote: post #162
moi2388 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt. I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

And in fact modern Egyptians are more Arabs — the Copts are closer to, but still very far from, the ancient Egyptians.

Therein lies the crux. In all these srories imperialism is a western power only thing. Meanwhile the region is constantly going back and forth in several imperialist waves. There is still imperialism active in dafur.
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