US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it • Hacker News Board

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#171

Post by webXL » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:04 PM UTC

Fizzadar wrote: post #140

hieronymusN wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play Devil's Advocate: How did they "fuck up big time"? From what I can tell from press coverage Stuxnet did exactly what it was supposed to do - damage centrifuges at Natanz.

I would say that because it spread beyond Natanz it was a big fuck up :)

Yeah, but everyone knows we don't want them to get nukes. The rest of the world doesn't want them to get nukes. Iran would have discovered the highly specialized virus on their network. It was a fuck up that the media got confirmation of the virus creators, but everyone knew who was behind it from day one.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#172

Post by nmridul » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:04 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #69

bluedanieru wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war itself isn't nearly as terrifying, but somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War.

>>somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War. Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Consider that democracies in general seems to go crazy when they have active terrorism problems and throw out human rights and the law book. E.g. Germany, USA, Israel, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, etc. (The only…

>> Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism.

Maybe you want to update your knowledge and find out what is the worst country. You will surprised to see the so calle "best" democracies there.

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/us/shocking-facts-about-whos-armi...

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#173

Post by gavinlynch » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:05 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #147

People, it is said, do "stupid" things on the internet in the belief that they will remain anonymous. Have the US and Israeli governments made the same mistake?

Considering that Iran is very well aware the US and Israel have a vested interest in dismantling their nuclear programs and that both countries are using cyber warfare to achieve their goals... Why would the US care if they remain anonymous? Do you considering setting back the Iranian nuclear program a "stupid thing someone did on the internet"?

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#174

Post by eli » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:05 PM UTC

dpeck wrote: post #155

It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…

How much more do you think you can reasonably expect for an ongoing covert national security program?

If the article is wrong, it would be a massive screw up. Huge. Historical. The kind of thing that would prompt a strong rebuke from the named countries and individuals.

In fact it's a remarkably well sourced article given the context and a cynical person might speculate on the timing of this revelation in regards to the upcoming election.

But yeah, it's confirmed. And I suggest you read the full NYT article (if you haven't). The Ars summary adds little value and elides many details that make the overall story more credible.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#175

Post by gavinlynch » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:09 PM UTC

The one part of the article that sticks out to me is that they "lost control" of the virus. I wonder if this is really true. Politically, it probably sounds better to say, "oops, this was only meant for Iran. Somebody messed up" than to have to field questions from reporters:

"Why does the United States think it is okay to infect hundreds of thousands of computers with this virus?"

"Is it ethical to introduce security holes or exploit security holes of everyday citizens of allies?"

"Do you take responsibility for the collateral damage? Have you committed an act of aggression on nation-states you are not in conflict with? How does that affect your relations with these nations?"

I wonder if this is their easy way to set themselves up to say, "This is complicated technology, our primary goal is to stop a dangerous nation from getting a dangerous weapon. We apologize for any collateral." even if that statement was false.

Perhaps it was necessary for the virus to spread to ensure the success of the mission and that cost was accepted, but they just don't want to admit it publically because of what it would open themselves up to.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#176

Post by wissler » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

wissler wrote: post #138

pyre wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "cold" distinction is that there are no open hostilities. There are hostilities wrapped in plausible deniability, and found through proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, etc).

"No open hostilities" is a definition by non-essentials. It's fallacious. As I already said and as you failed to address. Whether certain people happen to know whether there is an attack or who is behind it does not change anything. A state of knowledge does not change the reality: someone is planning and attacking.

It's easy to hit the downvote button. It'd show more courage and intelligence to counter with an actual argument.

Incidentally, Wikipedia backs my definition of "cold":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_war_(general_term)

"A cold war or cold warfare is a state of conflict between nations that does not involve direct military action but is pursued primarily through economic and political actions, propaganda, acts of espionage or proxy wars waged by surrogates. The surrogates are typically states that are "satellites" of the conflicting nations, i.e., nations allied to them or under their political influence. Opponents in a cold war will often provide economic or military aid, such as weapons, tactical support or military advisors, to lesser nations involved in conflicts with the opposing country."

I.e., this definition does not include direct planned and executed attacks by the nations involved. Continuing:

"The definition which has now become fixed is of a war waged through indirect conflict."

Indirect means indirect, not directly planting viruses that can destroy your factory.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#177

Post by underdown » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

jpxxx wrote: post #139

irishcoffee wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I heard the world is flat.

And I heard there's an organization called the IAEA that's unaffiliated with any particular nation-state that's been at the center of this extremely contentious global issue that would agree with exactly what I said, because that's exactly what they're saying, so uh, enjoy your limp sarcasm.

Not having sufficient evidence to prove something is happening is not quite the same thing as proving it isn't happening.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#178

Post by freshhawk » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:15 PM UTC

strags wrote: post #170

"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said." "Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".

Not when you honestly believe in American Exceptionalism

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#179

Post by elorant » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:15 PM UTC

So let me get this straight, they lost control of it and it ended up inside an Iranian power plant? You can't lose control of something so specifically tailored. The possible targets of this thing could be a few hundred installations around the globe so the motivation of stealing it, if it's even remotely possible to steal something like that, should be very low.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#180

Post by baddox » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:20 PM UTC

strags wrote: post #170

"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said." "Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".

Hypocrisy is deliberately lying about your values. This may be that, but it may also just be a compromising of values. An alcoholic saying that alcohol abuse is bad isn't hypocrisy is the alcoholic truly believes it.