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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#171

Post by adverbly »

gpm wrote: post #101
xaellison wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what that will mean for charging infrastructure that suddenly has to deliver 10x power to enable that. Not sure that sort of charging could be as ubiquitously placed as gas stations

Just have the same batteries in the charging station to smooth out power usage? Seems a lot cheaper and operationally less complex than a gas station.

Those would need to get cycled a lot(many times per day). You might want one for your house if you wanted to charge quickly at home, but for charging stations, I think more realistically they'd have 10x less charging spots if each person was only there 1/10th the time.

So the peak would be the same, but if there were too many customers then sort of like at a busy gas station people would be waiting for a spot rather than waiting for charging to complete.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#173

Post by rockskon »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lithium ion is the energy density?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#174

Post by ggreer »

adriand wrote: post #149
jdewerd wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building…

Cobalt, however, which is used in common lithium battery chemistries, is mostly sourced from the DRC (Congo), much of it under terrible conditions: forced labour, child labour, and rampant environmental degradation. The book Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives [1] is a real eye-opener if you haven’t read it. Fascinating and deeply disturbing. 1: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60784614-cobalt-…

Since 2022, the majority of EVs manufactured have no cobalt in their batteries. Most manufacturers use lithium iron phosphate chemistry (LFP), which is cheaper and safer than NMC or NCA. The cobalt-based chemistries are only used in higher performance vehicles, where LFP's lower energy density becomes a problem.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#175

Post by baq »

craftkiller wrote: post #60
MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose. Then again, so long as it's not so heavy as to cause pain, I think there would be a least some market for such devices. I thought the Steam Deck would be prohibitively heavy to use for it's weight, but the ergonomics made up for much of that.

If I use the steam deck for more than a couple of hours then I feel it in my wrists the next day. I still love the steam deck but it could go on a diet. (There are lighter alternatives, but I bought the steam deck specifically to financially support Valve's Linux gaming efforts)

This should be nicely solved with something like the xreal glasses. Lie the deck down and have the display right in front of your eyes regardless of how you hold the input device.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#176

Post by EasyMark »

jwagenet wrote: post #75
_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

This falls in line with a plug in hybrid being an excellent alternative to evs for most people. 30-50 miles of driving around town for work an errands, with an ICE for the occasional longer trip. Almost all driving will be electric without the charge anxiety.

I like the idea of a hybrid, but I need around 100 miles to make it worth the transition for me, otherwise I'll just go all electric or stay part of the problem. I still need the EVs to come under 30k to make sense, as that's the upper limit I set on vehicle cost for the present.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#177

Post by GuB-42 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #78
hilbert42 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"…smartphone manufacturers are very much into planned obsolescence,…" E-waste laws at some point will become inevitable, so planned obsolescence will be under scrutiny. Devices will have to have a minimum design life etc. Moreover, user-replaceable batteries—whether long life or high capacity—are likely to be mandatory as a result of such legislation. My old Nokia used to have a replaceable battery which also served…

> Manufacturers can't use the argument that it can't be done because it was common practice with Nokia 20 years ago. Nowadays more modern design practices will make that even easier to implement. The problem is water resistance. Your old Nokia (except the indestructible 3310) was dead if you managed to let it fall into water, most phones up until the end of the headphone jack had the same problem - and secure-boot st…

I don't know where this myth came from but there are many smartphones that are water resistant and with a user replaceable battery. One of the first in the mainstream was the Motorola Defy, there is also the Samsung Galaxy S5. Neither were particularly bulky. Interestingly the Galaxy S6, which followed the S5 was neither waterproof nor has a removable battery. I currently have one of the very few remaining smartphones with a removable battery (Galaxy XCover 7) and it is water resistant. It is a bit bulky (because it is rugged) but no more than the average phone when you add a case.

Sealing a battery compartment in a way that doesn't hinder replacement is a solved problem, they do it to diving watches that are actually waterproof at depth, not merely water resistant.

And phones cannot be completely sealed. That's why none are really waterproof (and warranty doesn't cover water damage). The biggest issues are speakers and microphones, getting the sound through and keeping the water out requires some compromises. Then there is the port(s), SIM tray, buttons, barometer,... By comparison, a battery cover is easy.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#179

Post by mulmen »

davedx wrote: post #150
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

> which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion Maybe. But take a lot of these cost claims with a giant pinch of salt: TCOE/TCOS at scale is what matters and we won’t have any real idea what that will be while most of these battery chemistries are still pre commercialization. That being said the cambrian explosion is very encouraging. Just good to temper optimism sometimes. Source: I talk to grid batte…

> Just good to temper optimism sometimes.

Sure. But is it really? Like in what way is it good? I see a lot more “tempering” than I do breathless optimism. Is any serious person in a position to do something meaningful with the batteries falling prey to hype that needs to be tempered?

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#180

Post by genewitch »

saalweachter wrote: post #121
pixl97 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the powertrain that's far more apt to be the problem. Hence a plugin hybrid generator style should be far simpler than a system with both an ICE and electric powertrain.

I'm not actually sure how many plug-in hybrids go for an all-electric power train, versus a dual power train. I know the Chevy Volt had an all-electric power train, and the ICE is purely a generator that dumps power into the electrical system, and the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid has a dual power train, but I wasn't able to find a concise list of which hybrids have taken what strategy.

parallel versus series hybrid. Series will have ICE generate and the only thing attached to the wheels is electric motors. Parallel (like the prius) the electric motor and the ICE are connected to the wheels. There are reasons for both, but freight trains in the US are series. In my opinion, series is probably the best, since you can engineer the ICE to be as clean and efficient as possible at exactly 1 RPM setting - making them last longer to boot.

I apologize for forgetting the benefits of parallel hybrid systems, but i know there are some, including needing a smaller ICE, all things equal.

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