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Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

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Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#121

Post by saalweachter »

pixl97 wrote: post #118
holoduke wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how often do you have issues with the engine. My last 3 cars never had a single engine issues for at least 175.000 miles. Its very rare today to have big engine issues.

It's the powertrain that's far more apt to be the problem. Hence a plugin hybrid generator style should be far simpler than a system with both an ICE and electric powertrain.

I'm not actually sure how many plug-in hybrids go for an all-electric power train, versus a dual power train.

I know the Chevy Volt had an all-electric power train, and the ICE is purely a generator that dumps power into the electrical system, and the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid has a dual power train, but I wasn't able to find a concise list of which hybrids have taken what strategy.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#122

Post by pnw »

_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

My first EV was a Volt which had only ~30 miles of EV range before it switched to gas. I bought it because I was EV curious but worried about range and I got a crazy cheap lease from GM. I drove it for three years and did a few short road trips. When I returned it, my total driving stats: 99% on electrons.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#123

Post by mech987876 »

gpm wrote: post #101
xaellison wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what that will mean for charging infrastructure that suddenly has to deliver 10x power to enable that. Not sure that sort of charging could be as ubiquitously placed as gas stations

Just have the same batteries in the charging station to smooth out power usage? Seems a lot cheaper and operationally less complex than a gas station.

I had an engineering colleague who previously worked at a company that reconditioned Prius batteries. It involved cycling powe in and out of the battery several times. Where did all that power come from? Another battery.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#124

Post by w1nst0nsm1th »

_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

The problem lies on electric grid capacity. If we're phasing out fossil fuel powered transportation, we will have to upgrade massivelly electricity productions well as in grid capacity.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#125

Post by kolinko »

alemanek wrote: post #74
_yb2s wrote: post #67

I had an early EV with only 80 miles of range, and found it extremely useful for most in town travel and commuting. Now that EVs are pushing ~400 miles range at about 300Wh/kg, assuming sodium is about half that (from what I've seen), you'd still get a respectable 100-200 miles in a car. For me, and I imagine a lot of people, that would be totally acceptable if it means lower cost, and batteries that effectively last…

From the article it claims charge speed 10x that of lithium and 50,000 cycle lifetime. I don’t know about you but a EV that can go 150 miles and charge to 80% again in 2min would be super compelling to me. Solid commuter car but not too annoying on the rare roadtrip. But, I am guessing grid frequency regulation use cases are going to make these too expensive for a car for a long time.

The main blocker with ev charge speeds now is the charging station capacity though, no?

Having said that - if we can get cheap and safe batteries installed within the charging stations, this would make for an awesome improvement

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#126

Post by MrDrMcCoy »

dtx1 wrote: post #52
MrDrMcCoy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, look at what was done to lighting. There are some original Edison bulbs that still work, yet you'd be lucky to get a year out of a modern incandescent. Same thing happened to LED bulbs.

> There are some original Edison bulbs that still work, yet you'd be lucky to get a year out of a modern incandescent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY > Same thing happened to LED bulbs. Because LED Bulbs cook your LEDs and are stupid design. Get a permanent LED fixture with decent passive cooling and they will last for decades. Adapting LEDs into the same Plug as Incandescent lighting just does not work.

I stand corrected.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#127

Post by dtx1 »

asddubs wrote: post #59
dtx1 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are some original Edison bulbs that still work, yet you'd be lucky to get a year out of a modern incandescent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY > Same thing happened to LED bulbs. Because LED Bulbs cook your LEDs and are stupid design. Get a permanent LED fixture with decent passive cooling and they will last for decades. Adapting LEDs into the same Plug as Incandescent lighting just does not work.

I've actually found that LED bulbs have only gotten more and more reliable over time. I used to have to replace them regularly but I haven't had one fail in several years now. And permanent LED fixtures are the stupid design. Who wants to do electrical work every time your light fails because of a power surge/lightning strike/capacitor going bad/whatever?

I don't know where you are from but here in Germany Surges/Lightning Strikes that damage equipment are so rare that I can't remember it ever happening to me in my lifetime. And Replacing a fixture if it eventual fails after decades is just not that hard. I did it in my Appartment and I only shocked myself twice, so it's very doable.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#128

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

cesarb wrote: post #68
justinclift wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach. Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;)

> Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;) As a data point, the ambient temperature right now where I live is 33°C. I just walked home from a quick grocery trip a couple of blocks away. And that's not an atypical temperature (at least for the warmer months of the year; we're supposed to be in the colder months now, but the climate's been all wonky lat…

It doesn't fail abruptly, but it doesn't achieve optimal performance either. It has pretty strict optimal temperature range, something like 10C to 30C.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#129

Post by Gibbon1 »

dtx1 wrote: post #8

50 Thousand Cycles would make replacing batteries unnecessary for almost all usecases. I would love such a battery in an electric bike. Max Range would be quite limited compared to a Lithium Version but with 10x discharge capacity and functionally unlimited life you could make a beast of a commuter e-bike. 50000 Cycles would realistically mean you can charge the bike every day for a hundred years

In industry trade magazines I'm seeing references to automotive batteries that would be good for half a million miles. Typical US driver would take 40 years to drive that far.

Also seeing that companies are serious about actual production of solid state batteries. Which have twice the energy density. I don't see cost numbers but might be those are actually cheaper just because there is less mass to manufacture.

Re: Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production

#130

Post by glial »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #33

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charg…

There is also an iron air battery project in Minnesota: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/02/10/rusty-batteries-cou...
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