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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#171

Post by awesomeMilou »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> These are apple's customers they have given you access to.

Insane take imo. I'm baffled how people can write this out with a straight face.

Just one counter example to the relationship you described: In Europe, if my app does not deliver as advertised, it is the customer that can sue me. Directly. They don't sue Apple because my app is in their app store, they obviously sue me, because I am the service provider.

> Also, I do wonder if EU flies a little close to the sun with this stuff. You can't legislate that someone lose more money than they gain with access to your market.

Watch us and learn.

Apart from that, I think this is blowing things out of proportion: Apple hasn't offered any calculation at how they arrive at the 0.50c installation fee, but I'm sure were going to get some insight once the first lawsuits at the CJEU roll in.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#172

Post by awesomeMilou »

sib wrote: post #167
math_dandy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. Windows users aren’t viewed as Microsoft’s customers from the point of view of third party software. Same with MacOS. Apple has pushed this paradigm in iOS because it’s ludicrously profitable. Control…

"Windows" didn't sell them a computer. Microsoft sold an OS to - for example - Dell, who then sold a computer to the user. So they are Dell's customers. And Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers. (Of course, there are also computers such as the Microsoft Surface, but these represent a tiny fraction of the universe of Windows computers eve…

> If 3P app developers want to access Apple's customers on a platform developed by Apple, then they should expect to play by Apple's rules...

That whole argument is based on the implicit assumption that Apple's products would still be as attractive to consumers as they are right now, even if they didn't allow 3rd party developers access to their platform. Which is a completely insane take, like literally pathologically insane, you-should-get-professional-help take for me to swallow.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#173

Post by 015a »

sib wrote: post #167
math_dandy wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. Windows users aren’t viewed as Microsoft’s customers from the point of view of third party software. Same with MacOS. Apple has pushed this paradigm in iOS because it’s ludicrously profitable. Control…

"Windows" didn't sell them a computer. Microsoft sold an OS to - for example - Dell, who then sold a computer to the user. So they are Dell's customers. And Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers. (Of course, there are also computers such as the Microsoft Surface, but these represent a tiny fraction of the universe of Windows computers eve…

1. Microsoft does sell users a computer. Sometimes. Surface devices represent about 10% of all desktop computers.

2. Apple also sells Macs, where developers can access "Apple's customers" unencumbered, without needing to play by Apple's rules (developers may also opt-in to a lower-form of "playing by Apple's rules" by submitting their apps to Apple for notarization, or naturally, they may also opt-in to the Full Rules by distributing through the App Store. This is a fantastic, multi-tiered system that works, obviously, well enough for everyone.)

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#174

Post by FirmwareBurner »

pdonis wrote: post #153
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plese stop repeating this FUD in every reply on this thread, you already posted the exact same comment here[1] and here[2] as well, and I already explained you why it's false. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39348035 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39348077

> I explained you why it's false. No, you explained that Apple has done the same thing. That doesn't mean MS didn't do what I said or that it didn't have a huge impact on third party Windows devs.

> or that it didn't have a huge impact on third party Windows devs.

Was the impact on Windows devs worse than Apple's impact over iOS devs?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#175

Post by realusername »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to.

I have the exact opposite point of view, they are my customers and Apple is simply a middleware which is blocking access to them.

They only get their cut through very questionable and borderline illegal practices as seen in the EU.

Maybe if they had to actually justify their cut in a real market, they would improve the sad state of their dev tools, that could start to somehow justify the cuts.

Notice that they forbid any display of the Apple tax anywhere, that could be a marketing issue if Apple customers start to understand what's going on.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#176

Post by lozenge »

iakov wrote: post #132
smoldesu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Exactly! I would tell those people to use another telephone, not sue Bell Systems to change their phone network" "Exactly! I would tell those people to find another supplier, not sue Standard Oil to change their business tactics" "Exactly! I would tell those people to ride a different rail, not sue Pacific Railway Co. to change their train routes" - Monopoly apologism, through the centuries

With only difference being that you can buy non-apple device with different features, while Bell was pretty much the only option people had.

And Apple is the only option businesses have. Without an iPhone app most online businesses are dead in the water.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#178

Post by __loam »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

It's completely ridiculous that this is where the conversation surrounding who can install software on hardware you own is.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#179

Post by awestroke »

ripply wrote: post #46
awestroke wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it was too much work to support PWAs in the EU for this beta. But they managed to have time to implement it for the rest of the world

I think that’s a little disingenuous, it already works for the rest of the world so of course they had time to implement it, grabbing where you live via an internal API and disabling functionality is easier to do than implementing a browser selection prompt and exposing possibly new APIs to new browsers.

That’s my point

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#180

Post by 015a »

awesomeMilou wrote: post #172
sib wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Windows" didn't sell them a computer. Microsoft sold an OS to - for example - Dell, who then sold a computer to the user. So they are Dell's customers. And Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers. (Of course, there are also computers such as the Microsoft Surface, but these represent a tiny fraction of the universe of Windows computers eve…

> If 3P app developers want to access Apple's customers on a platform developed by Apple, then they should expect to play by Apple's rules... That whole argument is based on the implicit assumption that Apple's products would still be as attractive to consumers as they are right now, even if they didn't allow 3rd party developers access to their platform. Which is a completely insane take, like literally pathological…

Absolutely true. I know of one younger guy who used to have an iPhone, but switched to Android after the Fortnite debacle. This happens. Having fewer experiences on your mobile platform will never gain you more customers. Fortnite isn't big enough to move significant numbers alone, but if you include other third party developers Apple loves egotistically slighting, Spotify, Netflix, Microsoft, etc: Apple would not exist if they collectively decided to abandon Apple's platforms. They have given FAR, FAR MORE to Apple than Apple has given to them; its so lopsided anyone who thinks otherwise isn't thinking straight.

These devs aren't doing this, by and large, today, because its not in their business interest to do so. But: capitalism is an efficiency maximizer. Software has lower margins today than it ever has, and they're only getting lower. The market simply cannot support 30% taxes forever; it'll happen one-by-one, its already happening one-by-one. Apple's choice is: Get ahead of it, find a better more efficient path for developers to distribute on their platforms; or watch their platforms become boring places where no one can possibly leverage their extremely bad and proprietary technology to make money, and "apps" only make sense for gigacorporations to distribute as a value-add for their web apps.

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