Live data from Hacker News

Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

malaymail.com

171–180 of 311 posts

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#171

One thing I didn't see mentioned here, lithium brine extraction has some pretty serious environmental downsides. Finding all that lithium will be a win if/when its extracted and usable, actually extracting it is a different story.

I hear people complain about this, but they never place it in context with the damage from, say, iron or copper mining. I've done lots of web searches, read lots of articles, and there's never definitive measures of harm or comparisons to what current mining does. In a standard f150, how much damage is done from mining? How much damage comes from oil extraction compared to the one-time cost to extract lithium?

Oh for sure, I have no idea how similar comparisons would shake out. I can say, though, that such comparisons pretty easily lead to tragedy of the commons problems.

If we want to decrease our impact on the environment we need to stop using so much energy and so many resources, period. Chasing the next miracle cure, in this case lithium batteries for energy storage, we can easily run down that path picking up all the ecological damage of lithium mining and new manufacturing only to find that there are new problems and we're not much better off, we simply have different problems and a similar level if environmental damage as if had we stayed on the original path.

Now that doesn't mean I don't have hope for alternative energies or think we should decrease dependence on nonrenewable sources. I do like the promise of wind, solar, nuclear. etc and also think we should be killing off non-renewables as quickly as possible. I just hope we don't attempt to treat environmental impact as a zero sum game, signing off on more damage based on not exceeding the damage caused by current systems. I also hope we don't stick to a consistent growth of 2-3% in annual energy consumption, its no coincidence that number matches GDP targets and its unsustainable.

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#172
post #17

Looks like existing worldwide reserves are 26M tons [0], so this is a big find. [0] https://pubs.usgs.gov/periodicals/mcs2023/mcs2023-lithium.pd...

There was a very large (20-40M tons) deposit recently discovered on the border of Oregon and Nevada. https://www.nevadacurrent.com/2023/09/22/report-of-giant-lit...

that one is near the surface and consists of clay deposits so extraction and refining should be much easier than many other deposits, such as in Australia.

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t energy independence more about other countries exports? From the perspective of Germany, their reliance on Russian oil caused a high spike in cost of energy during the current Ukraine invasion. For the US, we don’t really want to be at the whim of OPEC. The 1973 Oil Crisis is a historical example of OPEC taking a religious and political stance and using their oil exports to coerce the US against Israel. Another…

Germany's plight is entirely owed to their own political malfeasance in shutting down their nuclear power plants. With them, they would have managed just fine without Russian oil and natural gas.

But that was kind of bad luck in timing.

They started shutting down nuclear, to make switch to wind/solar, before Russia invaded. (or at least being very trusting of Russian supply, so that is error in hindsight).

You could make argument that the switch to wind/solar should have been more gradual, or with more ability to roll back. But don't think it is a good argument to not switch to wind/solar. Just about how to do it.

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not taking the extreme and unprecedented rate of temperature change into account is either ignorance or disingenuity. https://xkcd.com/1732/ It's probable that very few species will be able to adapt to such an abrupt change.

Adaptation happens when it's forced to happen.

This literally doesn’t mean anything

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#175

One thing I didn't see mentioned here, lithium brine extraction has some pretty serious environmental downsides. Finding all that lithium will be a win if/when its extracted and usable, actually extracting it is a different story.

I hear people complain about this, but they never place it in context with the damage from, say, iron or copper mining. I've done lots of web searches, read lots of articles, and there's never definitive measures of harm or comparisons to what current mining does. In a standard f150, how much damage is done from mining? How much damage comes from oil extraction compared to the one-time cost to extract lithium?

I got a but ranty there. To get back on topic, lithium isn't a one-time cost. Batteries wear out and have to be replaced. If we assume the batteries would outlive the average vehicle, we're committing to vehicles having an expected life of say 10 years. Meaning every 10 years it has to be destroyed, recycled, and replaced.

I have a 1988 pickup that still runs great. I don't drive it regularly as my hybrid is much better on fuel, but the damage done from producing that truck was paid for decades ago and I'd be shocked if the cost of a tank or two of gas per month comes anywhere near the ecological impact of a producing a new, electric F-150 that is marginally useful for towing or hauling (my only reason for needing a pickup).

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's plight is entirely owed to their own political malfeasance in shutting down their nuclear power plants. With them, they would have managed just fine without Russian oil and natural gas.

But that was kind of bad luck in timing. They started shutting down nuclear, to make switch to wind/solar, before Russia invaded. (or at least being very trusting of Russian supply, so that is error in hindsight). You could make argument that the switch to wind/solar should have been more gradual, or with more ability to roll back. But don't think it is a good argument to not switch to wind/solar. Just about how to d…

Nah, it was actual stupidity.

The same wind turbine in the scotland produces 3 to five times more power than in Germany

The same solar panel produces 3 times more power in Spanish winter than in German winter.

This is basic information available to anyone

https://globalwindatlas.info/

https://globalsolaratlas.info/

But fine, you decided to do energy transition inefficiently.

At least don’t switch of nuclear while you are still relying on fossil fuels!

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Think people have impression we are energy independent and Scot-free because of fracking. Really, fracking was a second chance. A reprieve. We'll just be behind 8-ball again if we don't take this reprieve and grow some other energy source.

I do not really understand why we are obsessed with energy independence. It only matters if we were to ban exports which is an absurd thing to do.

"independence" means we don't have to buy energy from the outside. Send money to someone, so they give us Energy. It is super important.

Think of it like this. How many oil producers do we have a problem with? That are dictators, at war, or generally bad. Every time we buy gas, we give them money. We send trillions of dollars to our enemies.

It is such an overwhelming National Security issue, that I'm frankly surprised Republicans fought renewable energy for so long. Oil isn't going to last forever. We should have been throwing resources at our own internal energy R&D. .

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burning and bombing their countries down to the ground works pretty well too.

The sharp ramp up of US oil production happened under the "all of the above" energy policy of Obama, who famously opposed that burning and bombing. Energy independence is vastly preferable to waging war, and may be worth making some environmental tradeoffs for — even if we would like to see cleaner alternatives to fracking in the long run.

> Energy independence is vastly preferable to waging war, and may be worth making some environmental tradeoffs

Environmental collapse will lead to wars, so this statement is self-contradicting.

In fact the sooner we run out of oil, the better - high oil prices mean that any alternative will get huge investment. France built out nuclear due to an oil price shock.

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify about reuse? At least as far as batteries go, right now once it's in a battery it gets used up & then ends up in the trash [2]. There's no efficient / cost-effective way to extract lithium from spent batteries for reuse in new batteries. We might in the future but it would require some scientific advances + expensive commercialization to scale up. Even if in the future we do develop a mechanism, it co…

Basically zero EV or HV batteries make it into the trash. They're recycled and already have a pretty good scrap value.

I was thinking mostly about phones, laptops, power banks etc. I couldn’t find any source online that expressed what percentage of lithium goes to different kinds of applications.

Re: Thailand discovers nearly 15M tonnes of lithium

#180
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

at the same time Thailand is no Congo. the reason stuff like this gets downvoted is that it's pretty counterproductive to list a country's sins every single time an article remotely relevant is posted, to have it devolve in to a flame war

Yes, indeed, it is not, but coincidentally today a person was imprisoned for 50 years for being a little critical about the king of Thailand. 50 years! A young man! It clearly foreshadows this otherwise very good news.

Many people I know live considerable time of the year in Thailand and they are very supportive of the country but in my opinion this particular legislation clearly reminds that not everything is good there and there exists a considerable risk to personal freedom.

I think that we should be vocal about this and not accept it as a "local peculiarity" - voicing disagreement actually can change the world to a better place as silently accepting a wrongdoing clearly does not.

Similarly we should not close our eyes in case of US when it is gravitation toward less freedom. But this news is not about US.

Post reply on HN