One should not discount the impact of climate/weather on the style of construction. Buildings enclosing gardens or a common area open to sunlight in an internal square is a great idea in moderate climates, but would work poorly in heavy snow regions.
Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
171–180 of 457 posts
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#172Spain also has the lowest fertility rate in Europe at 1.28. Not sure how much apartment living is cause or effect on that but it's a grim number. Every generation is only 60% the size of the one that came before it.
That was shocking so had to look it up, and it seems to be true. UN article on it here: https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/events/pdf...
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Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#173Poverty, that's how. They live in flats because they can't afford US-style houses (climate would allow them easily), and can't afford 70km average commute radius - car-only because sprawl can't be covered by public transport. They live in apartments not because they are so conscious about urban planning, but because they can't afford to do otherwise. Give people money and they want to move to single-family houses in…
That's far from the truth.
People want to live near the city center. They want to be able to walk and get anywhere easily and that's means they want to live in an apartment in a city.
Actually, nowadays is cheaper to buy a house with a garden than an apartment and guess what people are trying to buy?
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#174I'm okay with these high rises so I can enjoy the quiet tranquility of rural Spain. Everytime we do stay in an apartment in Spain the lack of sound proofing really stands out. Perhaps even more so because everything is tiled, no carpets.
I live in northern ireland in an actual house and the walls are thin enough I could dip my bread into my neighbours' soup. It is the number one reason I could never see myself living in an apartment, I'm very sensitive to noise and I get disproportionately angry at even low levels of unwanted noise. I'd be too worried about noise from neighbours.
I live in an apartment in Dublin -- noise is not a problem for me. I'll concede there is a bias in Ireland against apartments. I suspect it's because of the perception that 'flats' are either like the Ballymun flats or Luxury apartments no one can afford with little room in between.
It's a real shame this bias exists in Ireland it really does little to help the housing crisis or the egregious amount of one off housing in rural Ireland does little to help infrastructure connections.
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
Contemporary societal culture is biased against old folks—little respect, not valued for their wisdom and experience—but the problem with more older people is higher costs for retirement, healthcare, and a smaller pool of tax payers.
Where I live I feel old folks make the rules, and make 'm well for their home-owning, investment portfolio having, pension fund living, selves. Look in the US? Pressie is near senile, senate is full grey. Not all countries are this bad, but where I live it's similar. But culturally oldies need more respect?
Both of these things are true.
Your first paragraph is most relevant. The thing about the pressie and senators is only relevant to the miniscule minority of the most powerful people.
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious to hear what sort of economic models you have in mind that works with a non-growing or declining population
We can look at "prosperous" (let's find some happiness index) countries that have seen declining population for a while. Japan comes to mind. It's not like Japan deteriorated into some extreme poverty because of it, right? So maybe it's not that bad, "to be in decline" (in population number, or related GDP), as we are meant to believe?
> Japan comes to mind.
I think it's a little too early to draw conclusions. Japan reached their peak population in about 2010, and the decline since has been mild.
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#177> Only in South Korea more people live in collective dwellings than in Spain. I... have doubts. (Looks like they're only looking at OECD countries, so Singapore and HK, the most obvious counter-examples, are excluded.)
Population is one thing but density of people per sq km is another. For these cities people must be crammed into apartments I can't imagine that density would mean people are in single homes.
Mumbai India pop. 23,355,000 density 24,740
Hong Kong Hong Kong pop. 7,347,000 density 25,254
Dhaka Bangladesh pop. 15,443,000 density 33,852
Density is almost a pun "dense city"
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is slightly aside, but the concerns over fertility rates in the first world really seem REALLY misplaced to me. Population growth concerns are easily mitigated with immigration which will stay in demand until the rest of the worlds fertility rates catch up(40+ years), and the population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focu…
It’s ideology. People living in religious communities often worship fertility, and try to make breeding as widespread as possible. Blood based nationalism is obsessed with the “race” (unscientific term) not dying out. For both, having children and raising them in the same ideology is crucial for preserving their existence. For the global liberal capitalism, the only way it can maintain its egalitarian promise is for…
Not positioning myself here but ideology is one of those partisan despective words that have another-side-of-the-coin words (“culture” in this case, but see religion vs. cult, indoctrination vs. education, etc.). Several spanish regions are very keen on maintaining their particular culture.
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
I live in northern ireland in an actual house and the walls are thin enough I could dip my bread into my neighbours' soup. It is the number one reason I could never see myself living in an apartment, I'm very sensitive to noise and I get disproportionately angry at even low levels of unwanted noise. I'd be too worried about noise from neighbours.
I live in a modern apartment in Norway (2019). I guess some of our heat insulation demands make it so that we get extra thick walls and floors, but I've never heard any noise from neighbors. No tv sounds, no stamping feet etc. Maybe twice a year someone drills a hole to mount something on the walls and I hear that for a few minutes. Even have a train passing by outside I can't hear with the windows closed. Point bein…
It's because of heat insulation, like you guessed.
Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically
#180Spain also has the lowest fertility rate in Europe at 1.28. Not sure how much apartment living is cause or effect on that but it's a grim number. Every generation is only 60% the size of the one that came before it.
This is slightly aside, but the concerns over fertility rates in the first world really seem REALLY misplaced to me. Population growth concerns are easily mitigated with immigration which will stay in demand until the rest of the worlds fertility rates catch up(40+ years), and the population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focu…
A government’s source of revenue is working age taxpayers. Its biggest cost is the social safety net for the elderly. It seems natural for them to care about population growth? Where would they get the money for UBI if their tax base is contracting every year?
Immigrants (at the scale Spain needs) don’t want to move to a shrinking economy. Spaniards themselves are leaving the country to look for work. As an example, Central American immigrants will immigrate through multiple low growth countries specifically to get to the U.S. for work.
To GP’s point though, I think Spain’s population problems aren’t all that related to dense apartments and more tied to economic opportunities.