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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

171–180 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#171
post #43

Thanks for this. I’m going to be more aware of these kind of things and more watchful to make sure I don’t contribute to this myself and more observant of those around me. Now, I have a question for the women here — sometimes I’ll hear a woman make the joke about belonging in the kitchen. Do you have insight into why that might happen sometimes and what the best sort of response would be?

Some women are secure enough that it bounces off when stupid people act stupid. Some are making meta-jokes about sexism and how backward comments like that are. Some are comfortable with the prototypical 50s-style gender roles that you abhor.

To know "what the best sort of the response would be," you'd have to know a lot about the person you're talking to and how they'll respond to your unsolicited advice, and no one on HN is going to be able to grant you that.

But then, I'm not too sympathetic to what strikes me as an arrogant desire to transform the primitive worldview of a thinking adult with your wet blanket nostrums. By all means intervene if someone's being demeaning to another person, but in the case of a woman making a kitchen joke, I doubt you're dealing with a neanderthal waiting to be shaken into the 21st century by sobering thoughts about how retrograde it is to even joke about such things.

Emotional fragility has got to be at an all-time high these days.

Re: "Lighten up"

#172
post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say.

Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine.

Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it.

Re: "Lighten up"

#173
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maukdaddy says that "it depends on the type of personality you're dealing with," and I think that's very true with regards to immediate-and-public versus later-and-in-private. With many people, an embarrassing confrontation in front of the whole team will cause them to dig deeper, because their pride is on the line. The same person might respond more thoughtfully to a private expression of disapproval.

An advantage of doing it in public is that others can see that it's been done. This could include victims of the oppressive joke who will now see justice previal and might stand a smidge taller, and possible future (or past) 'offendors' who will see that that they should be more professional and not make the same mistake as the other person.

It's appropriate to take someone to task privately, while still making public statements of principles and expectations, even alluding to "the tenor of conversational has been unprofessional a few times recently, and it's not healthy, it's not productive, and it's not acceptable. If you hear something that's not right, talk to the speaker, or your manager, or HR, or the CEO. If someone tells you that you've crossed a line, make an adjustment and let's keep working as a team. ".

Re: "Lighten up"

#174
post #127
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you OK with being on a team where one of your teammates feels stressed out, defensive, and alienated because of comments being made by another member of your team? Would you be OK with it if the comments were about their personal appearance? Their hair? The quality of their clothing? Their accent? Lots of funny jokes to be had about accents! Are you OK with any of this? No? I didn't think so. Me neither. So what…

What I meant is this: she quit programming because she was in sucking programming jobs. She should have looked for a non-sucking programming job. This is not so much different from what most men in programming jobs experience - being in a job that sucks, and actively having to look for a better one. Edit: maybe I can't relate because my tendency is to quit if I find myself in a job that I don't like. This has happene…

That's not so different from what most men in programming jobs experience

Tell me, when was the last time someone sat next to you because "you were wearing tight trousers and they hoped they could see your junk"? How many men do you think experience that at work? Would you be OK with them telling you to lighten up if you took exception to it?

Re: "Lighten up"

#175
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Start wearing sweaters, even though my breasts feel like they're boiling in there (yup, that's one reason women like low tops, guys)?"

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

Erm.. Why does it have to be a low cut dress. I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments. Men should be allowed o have there shirts unbuttoned down to their chest because their chests are hot from all the hair?

Re: "Lighten up"

#176
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Start wearing sweaters, even though my breasts feel like they're boiling in there (yup, that's one reason women like low tops, guys)?"

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

Does it matter? It can still be the complete account of someone's reasoning for wearing particular clothing.

Re: "Lighten up"

#177
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you.

For the people on the other side of the joke, it's not fun. From what Katie Cunningham writes, it's so unbearable that she's on the verge of leaving the profession she loves.

With that understanding of the situation, sexist jokes lose their humor, at least for me.

Re: "Lighten up"

#178
The guy sees the "one joke." He doesn't see that to her it's the billionth-and-one "joke."

Bukowski put it best: "The Shoelace" http://allisonlanda.blogspot.com/2009/02/bukowski-shoelace.h...

Attention my fellow men: Just STFU unless you are reading stupid jokes from a bad sitcom script before a camera for TV.

Re: "Lighten up"

#179

I find posts like this extremely frustrating. Yes, I feel sorry for this woman. However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society. The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working i…

Being a victim is no excuse to victimize others.

Re: "Lighten up"

#180
Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys?

Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together.

I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen is on the same level as telling a guy he should stick to computers because he sure as hell sucks at talking to girls.

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