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Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

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Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#171
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not sure I follow what said hypocrisy is supposed to be. The article is about how they have the ability to hire anywhere, which is true regardless if they currently hire everywhere or not. Similarly the quotes about traveling for the summer are not invalidated, you don't change residency if you go to e.g. Alabama for 2 months so it's not a problem it's on the list. While I agree places that allow anywhere w…

> “Are you more productive having people physically in an office together and then constraining who you hire to a 30-mile or a 60-mile commuting radius to the office? Or by allowing your team to be able to hire people from anywhere?” he asked. From the linked "Airbnb CEO says the pandemic was the group’s ‘most productive’ two years ever, so now he’s making remote work permanent" [^1] (linked under "Airbnb made its “w…

Again, you can allow your team to hire from anywhere without mandating they hire from everywhere and the remote work change is indeed permanent, rather flexible (you can still go to the office if you prefer).

Regarding the last quote - the actual source, Twitter, contains more context with the following text of the same tweet saying there are 5 components for that, of which #3 is "You have the flexibility to live and work in 170 countries for up to 90 days a year in each location".

If you read the article to throw stones at the guy I'm sure you'll be able to find stones to throw. If you read it to find what he was saying I'm still not sure how this thread relates to what he said beyond you wish he had said even more.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#172
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but... what? There's no believing in metaphorical realities here. It's the real life. Being an employee is a bad bargain. You sacrifice a massive chunk of the returns from your work to your employer in the form of profits in favor of a small form of stability (or you did in the past anyways). That's just how capitalism works. Naturally if you go above and beyond sacrificing yourself for this bad bargain, yo…

Oh yes you are 4 times better than everyone else but treated just the same. Are you sure about that? Maybe some introspection needed? Also - the issue is not that some people are exploitative - that can happen. It’s the rest of it. The person who wrote the article is making the ‘bad faith’ argument passing on cynical stupid delusions. This idea that most orgs promote willy nilly is ridiculously wrong. It’s a contradi…

>Oh yes you are 4 times better than everyone else but treated just the same.

I never said that. It's clear you're not arguing in good faith so this will be my last reply. Not to mention that completely misses the point.

Even if you have to work 1.5x more than everyone else to get promoted, only to get a 10% salary increase, that's already a bad bargain.

>The person who wrote the article is making the ‘bad faith’ argument passing on cynical stupid delusions.

Sorry but that's not an argument. You're saying it's wrong without saying why. If I were to guess you identified as a Clueless and you're angry at it. It's okay. It's normal.

>This idea that most orgs promote willy nilly is ridiculously wrong. It’s a contradiction of reality.

Yes, most orgs promote the people that double down on bad bargains. Of course, as with anything, there are exceptions.

As an example, it's extremely common to promote people that do unpaid overtime. It doesn't matter the quality of that work or that it's clearly exploitative. What matters is that it signals to the company that you can take advantage of that person. They demonstrate willingness to take on more work, responsibilities and/or bad conditions for a small increase in pay (sometimes just a bit more power). That's the most profitable bargain the company can get so it absolutely makes logical sense.

Maybe you've experienced exceptional companies where only the people that deserve get promoted and they do so without having to get exploited for it. But that's not always the case and I've seen that multiple times in my career.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#174
Assuming it's possible for a given function/role/company's product, which is quite common in world of software development, I find the whole trend of moving people back into the office at least a little perplexing and, frankly, short-sighted much of the time.

In 2001, I began switching my schedule to full-time remote[0]. I was working for a bankrupt telecom doing about three times the work a person could reasonably be asked to do (while what was being asked for was equally unreasonable given my salary). I had a great boss who -- while recognizing he couldn't do much about my salary -- was willing to do everything else and being at a bankrupt company, there was little in the way of "Corporate Handbook" policy that could get in the way any longer[1].

Over 17 years, about half or more of the company began working from home regularly, many full-time. This happened shortly after we deployed OCS 2008 R2 (what is now "MS Teams") which we did partly because "Cisco license renewal is expensive" and partly because most teams had members in more than one state -- in IT, we had members is several countries. We had these wonderful meeting rooms in every office, and people would take every meeting from their cubicles because "there's only 2 people from my 10-person team here, anyway".

If we had a role that could be done from anywhere, we'd routinely hire from a far-flung office. Literally no staff was available to research "what we should pay for this person if they live in Nowhere, Wisconsin." We don't even trust what what we pay current staff in the area because we just assume we underpay all existing staff. And the ones that set those rates often live in expensive places. So we'd make an offer at 30% above the going rate, get these amazing hires that -- maybe they really want to do the work, but they really want to do it if they can drive in to the office in the new car they can now afford. Meanwhile, they're among the lowest paid for the role, so HR thinks we got a deal!

Having "distributed teams", necessarily, adds friction to collaboration. Learning to address/be proactive with that friction is something that can bring it back to "the right level of collaboration." I love this assumption that "well, for certain highly collaborative roles", being face-to-face is necessary. Later you'll find that one of these roles involves software developers ... probably deploying to servers they don't have physical access to. I am deeply skeptical of this. What I suspect is happening is that there are a small number of people on the team who are highly-collaborative, a lot who benefit from it, but for whom "a little less talk and a little more heads-down writing code" would be helpful. I've been on highly-collaborative projects, totally remotely -- I literally sat on camera all day/into the evening a few nights in a row on one occasion (with five other people) -- it was equivalent to "coding in a conference room re-labeled 'WAR ROOM'" and taking sleep-breaks under your desk in the early 00s -- except I could cover the camera/nap in my own bed.

The list of "difficulties with remote teams" is filled with "reasons" that all have countless examples of "companies that are remote but aren't struggling with that problem." It sounds like a lot of it comes down to combinations of "organizational inertia" -- unwillingness to find/utilize tools which help reduce the friction of being fully remote[4]. Invest in researching the myriad of pros/cons -- the quality-of-life on the employee side means attracting a lot of talent that is missing their COVID-temporary remote status. Being able to hire outside of the difficult urban marketplaces, alone, should be enough of a savings -- even if you stayed "in-state" -- to make it worth the costs of providing high-end laptops/improving VPN gateways/subscribing to a few SaaS tools/cost of more frequent team-building and intentional team "remote shoot-the-sh_t" meetings.

Prior to COVID, I worked at a place that was a "no offices/no phones on desks" kind of "in-person" (ironically listing "remote friendly" on their job posting). There were a small number of remote employees, but they were due to extreme circumstances (and the fact that the owners were, honestly, great people), and they were relatively impossible to collaborate with if you were in the office, so they were "on project X or Y" always. We had offices in Seattle, Germany, NY, and India and most of us never talked to any of them. Their projects were almost all geographically near their office. We wrote software! (and, a lot of it, more than once for more than one person, without realizing it).

Somehow fates collided and we'd deployed Teams a month before COVID shut-down -- replacing Slack. Two weeks into COVID, all of us remote, and a few things happened. Work, basically, continued about as fervently as it did before. Development started having "informal" weekly meetings and we discovered all of the developers at other offices! Over two months, most projects consisted of teams across time zones (shock of all shocks -- "need" matches up more evenly with "developer availability" when the latter is widely spread out -- we had 4 people knowledgeable in Voice in Seattle doing one small project while we had 4 waiting for "the one voice guy" at our office).

It would be impossible for that company to justify to me, today, why I'd have to return to the office. By the time I left, we were doing more business, completing more work, and filling long-open positions more easily. As far as I know, they left the extremely expensive, but incredible office (that attracted me to accept returning to a daily commute in 2016). The company went from "minimally remote" to the point of not even integrating between offices well to "fully remote because the government said so" ... we had an "all employee" call, HR made some rapid adjustments and a lot of good choices and business improved. As an employee, we all just went to IM/Teams and adjusted ... it just meant having more time due to the loss of the commute.

Sure, it won't work for every kind of work to be done, but companies who's product is software that is deployed on hardware they no longer maintain -- the vast majority of roles, if not all of them, can be done remotely as effectively as in-person. We all watched it happen in real-time for a year -- some struggled ... we sure didn't -- among my friends, I can't think of one developer/IT/other who's company has requested them back into the office (either flex or full time). Among them, "getting new-hires up to speed" is the biggest stress point, but "it's been a couple of years, now" ... most have figured that out[5].

[0] By 2005, I still had a cubicle, but I came in, at most once a month.

[1] By the time I left, I hadn't seen my desk in over a year. At the time, working remotely at my company "officially" required written approval from a C-Level executive, keeping a daily work journal sent to HR and a number of other "we really don't trust you/want you to do this but there will be that one reason some day..."

[2] It didn't rank nearly as high with attracting customers -- it was the thing you didn't know you needed until you had it and we didn't know how to market it, apparently.

[3] I can't remember the history, but I know the application was designed there -- I think we acquired the company that developed it, originally, and integrated it into everything, but the original reason for hiring in WI was "that's where the team was". Over years, much of that staff was working on projects that had no presence in WI.

[4] Actually, it sounds more like companies are interested in tools that allow them to spy on remote workers. My attitude is "these are problems shared by every distributed team, whether those people are in an office or not" so if you wouldn't install that on a desktop in the office, it doesn't go on my work laptop in my home.

[5] Usually the "brute force" method is used: get a few people to the same place/derelict office for a two-week boot camp "here's the code, here's how things work, here's the obnoxious process, the time tracking tool, the 5 things we do once a year and can't remember how (and how to get to the page where they're all documented), and what's expected in what meetings" Fully remote doesn't mean you forbid face-to-face; I'd argue it's always optional -- I've done these things fully remote and seen it done well.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the key trick is that once you outsource enough of your key competitive advantage - the question arises - what is the company and who creates value - contractors or company management? why shouldn't these contractors open their own company, do the same work and capture entire value they produce, instead of working for fixed salary?

Some will. Just like some employees will start companies. It’s no different. A company’s intellectual property is still theirs.

what is exactly IP in software world? Your backend app written in Spring with postgres schema like thousands other CRUD apps? or cookie cutter front-end in React with Tailwind?

I don't think wide moats in form of IP ever existed in software world

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#176
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes you are 4 times better than everyone else but treated just the same. Are you sure about that? Maybe some introspection needed? Also - the issue is not that some people are exploitative - that can happen. It’s the rest of it. The person who wrote the article is making the ‘bad faith’ argument passing on cynical stupid delusions. This idea that most orgs promote willy nilly is ridiculously wrong. It’s a contradi…

>Oh yes you are 4 times better than everyone else but treated just the same. I never said that. It's clear you're not arguing in good faith so this will be my last reply. Not to mention that completely misses the point. Even if you have to work 1.5x more than everyone else to get promoted, only to get a 10% salary increase, that's already a bad bargain. >The person who wrote the article is making the ‘bad faith’ argu…

"Sorry but that's not an argument. You're saying it's wrong without saying why."

No - it's not my job to disprove totally made up fantasy.

The delusional author and his naive followers are the group perpetuating completely unsubstantiated theories about the workplace, which have zero scientific backing whatsoever.

The author did not even attempt to 'prove' anything (because he can't) - there is zero worked required to undo that.

Here is the source of the problem with your argument:

You have not defended his thesis at all, rather you keep bringing up arguments about how 'companies can be bad actors' and 'people can be duped'.

Yes - of course, we know that.

What the author is doing is constructing a deluded, fantastical bit of structured that plays into your view that 'companies can do bad things'.

Imagine you 'Trust Trump' so much that you are willing to believe his lie that the 'Election Was Stolen'. If you start from that premise, it's extremely easy for him to make up a set of ridiculous fantasies about how the gov. is broken, evil and 'out to get him'.

As it turns out, the 'election steal' is a lie.

By saying to someone 'But there are election irregularities! Look over here!' - only proves that they occur, which we know, but not at some scale and by some nefarious pattern of election stealing.

So yes - welcome to adulthood - companies and orgs of all kinds sometimes do nefarious things, and there are 'deluded corporate warriors' who on some level don't recognize that. It's fun to point that out.

However - the vast, vast majority of work and corporations are not that. In fact, orgs can do 'life saving' things at the same time they are 'bad'. Best example are drug companies who sometimes charge more than they could get away with, and FYI sometimes it's an inherent moral dilemma.

The second point of emotional leverage that the author is using (i.e. not just against our derision of sneaky corps) - is the fact we live in a political workplace and most of do not like being told what to do. 'Effective Managers' are not necessarily liked, or respected, and that's just reality. A lot of people lack the maturity and self awareness / objectivity to evaluate their position. By far the most common thing among workers is a total lack of understanding of how hard managing is, and the nuances of it. Having been a manager of people myself, I have a completely different set of criteria by which I tend to evaluate managers.

In short: the author is a conspiratorial nihilist populist.

In reality, most systems are 'crudely meritocratic'. Usually, better people are promoted, but you first have to understand that 'better' in your mind may not be 'better' in the mind of the people making the decision.

Yes, people at the top have a few more psychopathic character traits than the rest of the population, but that's actually just a function of the system. Usually, they are not idiots.

Finally - there is no such thing as a 'great team' as a matter of perception, but if you step back and see how things actually work, and that if the company 'did not exist' how it would be bad for a lot of people, then you recognize the funny, imperfect way in which social systems work and respect that they are never going to 'seem' perfect.

People who 'believe' in the ridiculous 'principles' (completely unscientific and unsubstantiated) put forth by the author, have been duped, unfortunately.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#177
post #167
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Nothing good' happens by 'self-oriented individuals doing the least', in fact I would go further and say 'almost nothing' happens at all. If you've ever been on a 'decent team' you'll see that there are many 'in between' elements of an operating situation that have to be accommodated, and it takes a bit of extra focus and goodwill by everyone if it's going to work out. This applies not only to tight-knit groups, but…

I think that actually the one that might have a wrong perception of what "being a professional" means might actually be you, no offense intended, i'll explain my point: First a couple questions: when you go to you grocer and order and pay 5 apples, do you get exactly 5 apples or do you get 6, or even 7? When you call a professional plumber to fix your sink do they charge you less at the end of the work, or do they ch…

Thanks for bringing up the plumber, because it's something we think of as 'transactional' but in reality it is not.

Plumbing is artisinal, Carpentry, even more so. There are no two situations the same, and it'd be easy to a builder, carpenter, plumber, electrician to 'cheat' (aka the minimum) and do less than a great job - and - get away with it.

In fact, I have family members who are Carpenters, and this is probably where I get this from because it's more tangible.

'Crap work' is either a function of 'lack of skill' (quite common), but otherwise just poor professionalism and it's bad.

If you want to see the true character of an electrician, look behind the drywall to see the quality of the work.

By the way - there are some carpenters/plubmers/builders who take it way to far on the quality side and build something that could withstand a nuclear war which is not necessary - but this is something else.

The community only works if people are doing 'good work' - not 'the minimum'.

And by the way, sometimes these things are enforced with regulations, but even just conventions, ethos, professional standards.

You can see this if you visit a 'not rich nation', like Mexico. Go to that country and look at the construction - you will see not 'a cut corner' - but a 'million little things' that contribute to the building being shit. Or go look at those 'China Housing' videos on YouTube.

You can see here that there is a 'broader picture' - one that transcends even the mores of a singular project or company.

Let's use the notion of a sports team:

You, as 'guard' are not in a 'transactional relationship' with the 'centre' of the team - it's a 'team effort', which is what is meant by 'trust' and 'got your back', expectations of 'goodwill'. In the military, you're 100% sure that the Medic will do everything possible to save your life, without that trust it would fall apart.

Corporate organizations are obviously not the same, but very similar. People are there to work as a team to do something, 'profit' to shareholders are just one of the factors involved, the other forces are value to supplies, customers and other team members.

As a side note consider that most of the value created by corporations does not even go to shareholders - it goes to customers, suppliers and staff. (If a drug company stopped making a drug, the 'harm' would be felt far more buy customers than investors, similarly for most company formations, private or ngo)

Finally, the 2%. Yes, 'comp' is a part of the equation, obviously, if someone is not getting paid what they want or expect, that's not good - of course a company cannot pay $5/hour for something that would normally cost $50/hr - but - those are the terms of work, not the terms of 'how well we work' (for the most part). A raise of 2% is just 'comp'. That's not 'evil' or even 'bad' - it's just how the comp structure works.

And for reference your notion that '2% is not enough' in some objective way, is not true at all. It's definitely less than inflation, but the sad reality is it's entirely possible the workforce is overpaid right now. Much like the French Pres. having to raise retirement from 62 to 64 and people putting up a fuss, unwilling to accept that reality, the 'inflation' reality is 1) we print money during COVID to keep the patient alive and 2) there are still supply chain problems 3) 'de-globalization' is happening and 4) we're heading into higher interest rates and 5) for many years there was very low inflation, but wages rose a lot. That means we're going to contract a bit relative to where we were, and it's going to happen throughout the system. To be clear, that's only a factor driving 'only 2%' there are obviously others, and to add a final bit of nuance, the FED actually does target 2% inflation - that is their goal on average, which is probably where the 2% standard wage increase comes from.

So again 'my pay' is just part of comp, one part of the much bigger picture. Inn the end, if it's not working out well, then you can move on - that's to be expected and that's what keeps prices working well, churn is normal and healthy - but none of that means you 'do the minimum' where you are, or where you go in the future.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What does "in your area" really mean when looking for remote work? Due to employment, tax and labor laws in my country, remote work still has to be done for a company that has a presence in my country. I can't have an employment contract with a company not based here, only B-2-B. So remote basically limits me to local companies, which don't usually offer 100% remote work posibilities.

you can but you need to setup your own company and work as a contractor.

That's what B-2-B is, which is what I said. And it sucks because then you loose the employment perks of being an employee: sick leave, parental leve, included healthcare, paid time off, etc.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#179
post #137
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may need to re-evaluate your current friendships.

I have many lifelong friends who are effectively 'kin' aka almost extended family and I don't drop friends because sometimes they might grind a bit, or as we age we see some things (very) differently. Frankly, some of them are a bit odd and have very few friends of their own - they're not going to be 'ejected' because they are not always in support of my sanity. I don't keep 'fairweather friends' who suit my current…

I know I came off very cheeky but your statement "forced to behave", indicates that some people in your life do not behave well around you. I think it'd behoove you to consider whether those "friends" are using you, in a nefarious manner, or whether they perhaps do not deserve your attention.

Re: Brian Chesky: Ability to hire from anywhere is more valuable than in-office work

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can but you need to setup your own company and work as a contractor.

That's what B-2-B is, which is what I said. And it sucks because then you loose the employment perks of being an employee: sick leave, parental leve, included healthcare, paid time off, etc.

You can negociate some of those in the term of your b2b contract. And in the case of healthcare, the company supposedly doesn't have to pay for it so they can pay that additionnal amount to you directly.
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