Vacations in the Soviet Union • Hacker News Board

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#171

Post by bobthepanda » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

ActorNightly wrote: post #111

boveus wrote: post #79

>It encouraged workers to vacation with groups of relative strangers as opposed to their friends and families. This can actually work out well. I experienced something similar in the US while on vacation. I was traveling with someone from Glenwood Springs, CO to Denver, CO via Amtrak. We went to the dining car for lunch an since there were two of us and space is at a premium, the Amtrak policy was to seat us with one…

This is a very good idea for teenagers and younger adults to break them out of the online world. For working class though, its probably best not to force people to socialize. The thing that doesn't get talked enough about in socialization is that its not all positive, and people have different tolerance to each others bullshit.

in ye olden days you used to solve that with an understood social standard of 'polite' topics.

i would like to say, that this is at least somewhat observable today at places like work; but also, society has changed a lot.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#172

Post by avodonosov » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:54 PM UTC

I haven't finished the text, but it's a bad write up.

The author tries to make it impressive, and for that brings unneeded speculations.

> Failing to applaud a speech by Joseph Stalin could get a person arrested. So could listening to bootlegged copy of the Beatles.

The Beatles were published in USSR officially, as well as many other western artists. At least in late USSR. I still have many those vinyl discs. In earlier years, when my father was young, he and his friends had all rock records: Beatles, Creedence, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd, everything. Without any problems.

Stalin and the Beatles are two different ages. Also, life in USSR was not always the same during its existence.

> That fact drove Soviet policy toward time off..

No evidence is given, what driven the policy. That's just a speculation.

> As the country industrialized, it became evident workers needed time away from the job if they were to remain productive when they were on it.

What? That had always been evident. Rest and free time was a theme of socialist movements all over the world long before the October Revolution.

> Following this train of thought, hardliners feared...

I always love when journalists have telepathic abilities. Not only they know what people do, but also what they think and feel.

> They also believed that, once the science of work systems had been perfected, workers would no longer need rest, rendering time off obsolete.

Really? A reference is needed. Vacation time was only growing with years. As far as I understand, the ideology was that with time the growing work efficiency will give more and more free time to workers.

In short, in this text true facts are mixed to produce some bullshit picture of the author's fantasy.

Journalism.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#173

Post by jollyllama » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

boveus wrote: post #79

>It encouraged workers to vacation with groups of relative strangers as opposed to their friends and families. This can actually work out well. I experienced something similar in the US while on vacation. I was traveling with someone from Glenwood Springs, CO to Denver, CO via Amtrak. We went to the dining car for lunch an since there were two of us and space is at a premium, the Amtrak policy was to seat us with one…

The point of this is to encourage atomization and discourage the formation of long term friendships, which could form a substrate for dissident networks.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#174

Post by systems_glitch » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #7

EarthIsHome wrote: post #2

Happy May Day! Here's a Twitter thread [0] that has excerpts/paraphrases from an old Soviet pamphlet called "How Soviet Workers Spend Their Leisure." (rolled up version [1]) You can find a scanned version of the pamphlet here [2]. There were many of these pamphlets published. One day I will scan them and post them. There was one on Waterways & Transport in the USSR, one about Soviet theater, one about the food indust…

Prolonged periods of time spent without obligation to work for pay is one of the greatest luxuries you can have in this life. People shouldn't have to wait until retirement to enjoy it. Sabbatical, basically, although even sabbatical often comes with obligations for self-improvement serving the company offering it. A lot of discourse on working hours revolves around decreasing the hours worked per week. I would also…

Hey if they let people work less because the machines do it, they might figure out we're "dangerously" close to post-scarcity in a lot of fields. Gandhi figured that out a long time ago and talked about it, it's why the only machine he liked was the sewing machine.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#175

Post by bequanna » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

beepbooptheory wrote: post #89

0xDEF wrote: post #38

It's fascinating how the ideology of Marxism–Leninism (Communism) today is more popular than ever among young people in former capitalist heartlands like the US, Canada and UK. A simple European-style welfare state with universal healthcare is all you need to satisfy 90% of people but the elites in the US and the UK refuse to provide that.

I think Euro-socialism is what most of those kids want, whether they are aware of putting it in those terms or not. The culture wars seem to dictate that there are huge contingents of tankies among the youth, but that doesn't really seem to be the case on the ground (i.e. not on Twitter). The DSA, the biggest, by far, left-org in the US appears, at least to me, to be pushing a platform indistinguishable from a Euro m…

European socialism isn't bad. But how does it work when you have such varied cultures like the US?

Outside of some existential threat like war, it doesn't seem at all possible for everyone in the US to start rowing in the same direction.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#176

Post by Nzen » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:56 PM UTC

atemerev wrote: post #3

The Soviet economy was somewhat surreal and it is difficult to explain it well to the Western audience. Including vacations, vacation tickets («путёвки»), summer camps, sanatoriums and the like. I still remember some parts though, so if you are interested in how it worked, I can answer your questions. Most definitely it wasn't all that rosy.

What was the process for reserving a vacation ? Were y'all able to select the time and location ? If so, what was the lead time like ?

Did you manage to form a relationship with someone outside of your initial social circle that persisted beyond the duration of the vacation ?

I recommend amending your offer with some specifics, so that we may better focus our questions on the particulars of time and place. Not to identify you (though that is a risk), but to draw context about the time (relationship with NATO, do computers exist) and perhaps about the specific locale (Okhotsk beaches are probably not like Astrakhan beaches).

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#177

Post by ivan_gammel » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:57 PM UTC

meindnoch wrote: post #57

fweimer wrote: post #23

> In the West, what you do when you leave the office was and is your own business. In the USSR, it was everyone else’s. Is this actually true? In Germany at least, vacation from work is not truly our own time. We are legally required to use it to relax and restore our capacity for future work. Few people probably see it that way, admittedly. Of course, there is still a huge difference, but it's awkward to view everyt…

Lol. So you can't remodel your house while on PTO? Somehow I doubt this is the case...

Agree. I’m not a legal expert but I’m sure the court would take the side of an employee in such cases. Treating vacation as only a treat for the employee’s body that must rest is nonsense. When you take vacation to work as caregiver for your family member or to improve quality of your life with some home project, or even to dedicate time to your hobby that may be a physical challenge but offers you spiritual fulfillment is perfectly normal. Nobody shall be able to deny you that.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#178

Post by justsomehnguy » Mon, May 01, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

dubcanada wrote: post #149

atemerev wrote: post #3

The Soviet economy was somewhat surreal and it is difficult to explain it well to the Western audience. Including vacations, vacation tickets («путёвки»), summer camps, sanatoriums and the like. I still remember some parts though, so if you are interested in how it worked, I can answer your questions. Most definitely it wasn't all that rosy.

What are "vacation tickets"?

Remember what USSR had a planned economy?

There was a system of distribution of pre-paid by the government (and maybe, not sure, there were a subsidized ones) and by big factories, ministries, which often had their own resorts/sanatoriums, vouchers[0] to rest/vacate/heal there.

Add: Sometimes they were a part of incentive and motivation for fulfilling a quota or finishing a project, sometimes as means to penalize someone ("You've been seen in the state unacceptable for a Soviet man, so you are out from the list for putyovka this year!") and of course as means to gamble or obtain something, trading it for things or services.

[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%82%D1%91%D0%B...

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#179

Post by zvmaz » Mon, May 01, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

atdrummond wrote: post #127

samstave wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much amazing beauty in the world, including the largest country on the planet, Russia - and then especially areas in China, which I would LOVE to visit, but the governments of each country kinda suck, so its not a place I'll likely go (imagine mtn biking through some of the amazing landscapes of either) With that said, I'd love to hear Lex Fridman's opinion on all of this.

I encourage you (barring safety concerns) to travel to countries whose governments are considered illiberal. Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Russia, China, Turkmenistan, Brunei. You learn a lot about how the western media tends to exaggerate for political ends.

> Some of my most enlightening trips were to DPRK, Russia, China, Turkmenistan, Brunei. You learn a lot about how the western media tends to exaggerate for political ends.

I am not a Westerner, and I highly doubt you could get an understanding of what it is like to live in such countries by merely visiting them as a tourist.

Re: Vacations in the Soviet Union

#180

Post by bequanna » Mon, May 01, 2023, 6:00 PM UTC

dubcanada wrote: post #170

kfrzcode wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't think the ideology of communism is the issue, on paper it's a very sound ideal. The problem is when greed/other human attributes gets involved it stops working. As with any of them, it's all about the people and how they implement it. I don't think capitalism sounds good at all on paper, but has worked for quite a while, mostly due to some degree of working standards and unions. Remember most of these haven't…

Right, but isn't the ignorance of actual human character shortcomings a huge reason why communism can't ever work, even on paper?

People are inherently self-interested. I would argue that any proposal for an economic system or government needs to acknowledge this at the outset and be built based on that foundational belief.