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Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

kristall.random-projects.net

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Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#171

Post by moring »

shadowgovt wrote: post #139
jesprenj wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Webdevs are aware of flaws in their browser so that they have to hack up a bunch of javascript in order to safely login instead of cooperating with the browser developers, which are their employees. On the other side chromium devs need to develop quirks/hacks for specific sites in order to support their bloated javascript hacks (: I find it bizzare.

It's not flaws in the browser; it's flaws in the design of HTML and CSS (i.e. "Oops nobody realized that a real right bastard could bend the static rendering tools to make this happen; well that's a problem"). I'm having difficulty sourcing the details right now, unfortunately; I believe the issue was that non-JavaScript HTML combined with CSS lets you frame-in the target site's login page but situated in such a way…

My guess would be: using CSS to place the malicious site's input files exactly where the framed site's input fields are, but "on top" (on the z axis), so the user actually inputs data into the malicious site.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#172

Post by jug »

I think it would be more flexible to instead of Geminispace and developing a browser without JS support to enforce “smolnet” would simply be to define a HTMLite standard with a subset where e.g. the entire script tag or img tag is not part of it.

Then you have HTMLite verifiers (probably the simplest thing to verify!) to ensure a site is compliant and voila you need no Gemini protocol, only simple HTTP/1 and you can also render it in anything from Firefox 1.0 to Kristall to Lynx to Chrome 100+. As a bonus now you would also have very mature accessibility support thanks to modern browsers.

We already have the tools for smolnet. We don’t need to enforce it by removing features. We just need to define what little it should be.

Having said that, all the power to people who love tinkering this way instead. I just think it will be a hindrance to broader adoption and wasting a bit of flexibility and reach (in terms of both software and people).

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#173

Post by denton-scratch »

est wrote: post #113

I am ok with no CSS/JS/WASM, but no graphics? This is wrong on metaphysics level. Like Socrates believed, writing was not an effective means of communicating knowledge

It says that one of the features is "In-browser rendering of text, images and video". That seems to be at odds with the statement that it doesn't support "graphical websites".

All I can think is that it doesn't support canvas - which would have surprised me anyway.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#174

Post by jug »

napolux wrote: post #24

HN is the only place on the Internet where I hear about Gemini. Excluding Gemini itself. I'm all in for a simpler Internet, but on HTTP(S), with images and other media if needed

Exactly. See my other post here — I think a HTML subset would make more sense. Then these sites would run safely on both Kristall and Firefox for as long as they adhered to this simplified standard.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#175

Post by O1111OOO »

BizarreByte wrote: post #99

I don’t think I’ve ever seen HN react so negatively to a project, but I think that has to do with the image people have of what a “browser” is. Kristall isn’t very useful for HTTP even though it supports the protocol. That said its goal is the “small internet” and very basic sites on HTTP will work, which is is inline with that goal. Some have complained even Google search doesn’t work, but Google search doesn’t fall…

> I don’t think I’ve ever seen HN react so negatively to a project

I thought the title was all wrong. It created false expectations. Too many people thought this was an HTML browser. I first came across Kristall when I was looking at GeminiSpace ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(protocol) ) - the gemini protocol (a replacement for http(s)) plus GemText (a replacement for html).

Kristall is a browser for GeminiSpace - first and foremost. GeminiSpace has embraced some aspects of the legacy small-web - specifically gopher and finger. Lots of the browsers in GeminiSpace support all three: GemText, Gopher and Finger.

Some of these GeminiSpace specific browsers also try to support other types of markup languages (html, markdown) but that's not their primary use case.

I can see that Kristall is trying to be more than a Gemini Browser. It can do well here if it was clear about the level of html it was going to support. I'd be very happy with HTML 3.2 ( https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Wilbur/ ) for example (mid-90s).

Unfortunately, it doesn't even do 'turn of the century' HTML tables very well - something that the lightweight Dillo ( https://www.dillo.org/ ) does well.

As Kristall's level of html support increases; I'd love to be able to include it as a viable html browser (similar to Dillo and a bunch of other older browsers I have installed). As a GeminiSpace Browser, however, it is among the elite. This should have been its intro to HN.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#176

Post by anthk »

dig1 wrote: post #73

lynx, links, eww (from Emacs) and edbrowse [1] entered the chat ;) Especially edbrowse, which I find weirdly powerful. [1] https://edbrowse.org/

Edbrowse does HTML+JS, Email, IRC, File Managing and it's an SQL client too. And a text editor.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#177

Post by anthk »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #61
genjii931 wrote: post #48

So, basically Gopher.

It's essentially gopher with TLS.

Gopher with TLS exists, it's promoted by gopher://bitreich.org and sacc.

Gemini it's something else. It supports non 80x24 displays with automatic resizing and fixed-width text, among the images category.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#178

Post by anthk »

napolux wrote: post #55
marginalia_nu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, the gemini protocol and gemtext format is like the internet equivalent of a 6502. It's extremely approachable to anyone with a basic understanding of programming. Like you could slap together a working client or a server in an afternoon, most likely. Its built-in limitations also inspires quite a lot of creativity.

That's make it just a toy

Unix was born to play Space War. NCurses exists because of Rogue. Text adventures where used a lot on text parsing, and video games boosted the PC industry on multimedia.
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