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On ‘Plant-Based’

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Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#171

Post by dmitriid »

chc wrote: post #155
dmitriid wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't "disguise" things as burgers, sausages etc. That's how meat has been prepared since time immemorial across all cultures. Why do vegans and vegetarians insist on disguising vegetables as meat - now that's the question. Even though the same cultures have a mind-boggling variety of foods that don't involve meat, and don't pretend to be meat.

Those are not the natural forms of any animal's meat any more than they are the natural forms of vegetables. What you actually seem to be saying is "How dare vegetarians prepare their food in similar ways to how I do?" The idea that vegans are being sneaky with their foods is kind of funny considering the usual reputation of vegans is best captured in the joke "How do you know if someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they…

> Those are not the natural forms of any animal's meat any more than they are the natural forms of vegetables.

Ah yes. The non-natural form of "vegetables that taste like pork hamburger". Funnily how you never see meat producst disguised or sold as replicas of non-meat products.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#172

Post by scatters »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #111
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I interpret "plant-based" as "plants are the majority of the mass of the product."

Sure, though it still feels a little sneaky, clearly the majority of a cookie that contains eggs and butter is still wheat... It reminds me a little more of packaging that proclaims that a box of table salt is "fat-free!" or a box of sugar is "gluten-free!" - well, yes, I'd hope so, since you'd have to go out of your way to add those in...

> you'd have to go out of your way to add those in

And yet food companies are adding minimal amounts of peanut oil or sesame flour to products, specifically so they don't have to guarantee that they are free of those allergens.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#173

Post by dmitriid »

ben_w wrote: post #136
dmitriid wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you accept that Buffalo Wings contain no actual buffalo, right? Let's go back to your original statement, shall we: "Why do meat eaters disguise things as burgers, sausages, and nuggets?" No part of that statement ever said anything about buffalos. And wings don't disguise themselves as wings. Also, Buffalo Wings have nothing to do with buffalos, and everything to do with Buffalo, New York. > The term "vegetari…

> Also, Buffalo Wings have nothing to do with buffalos, and everything to do with Buffalo, New York. Yes, and hamburgers have nothing to do with ham, they're named after the city of Hamburg. Frankfurters also not made of Franks. > Funnily, meat is never (or very very very rarely) disguised as vegetables. OTOH, what exactly do people think they're eating when they have wieners? Because I'm fairly sure the meat shapes…

> Yes, and hamburgers have nothing to do with ham, they're named after the city of Hamburg. Frankfurters also not made of Franks.

And your point is?

> OTOH, what exactly do people think they're eating when they have wieners?

That they eat a sausage made of meat that is named "weiner".

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#174

Post by feoren »

mfer wrote: post #166
derbOac wrote: post #6

I've tended to see the term "plant-based" as synonymous with "vegan and/or vegetarian", used when there's variability or uncertainty about which of those more specific terms would apply. "Meatless" would also suffice but I think "plant-based" is used to emphasize what is present rather than absent. But I think the essay is right the term has become vaguer than that even, and my own understanding of it doesn't quite m…

“Plant based” Is a popular marketing term for processed food. The plant based diet folks will tell you that this is basically junk food. They do this looking at what’s in the food and the science of it. They will tell you to eat plants instead of processed food.

> They will tell you to eat plants instead of processed food.

Just be very careful if you do this! Don't cut or chop the plants in any way, since that's technically processing it. Don't apply any form of heat -- applying heat is one of society's most common forms of industrial processing! Don't wash or clean the plant at all, as that is also a form of processing. You must carefully lower the whole plant down your esophagus into your stomach, but be warned! Human stomachs also attempt to process foods via dangerous acids and other chemicals! It takes deep concentration and meditation to prevent your stomach from processing your food; only with practice can you eat truly "un-processed" foods.

And be aware of those scary genetically modified foods! Humans have been artificially changing the genetic code of plants and animals for 10,000 years! You must only eat paleo-foods: never anything that any human has ever selectively bred, or you're eating a GMO!! All your food must be sourced from the untouched wilds, never artificially manipulated by humans. The deep rainforests of Papua New Guinea is a good place for this. Only ever eat plants from Papua New Guinea, that the dinosaurs ate, never grown or touched by other humans, and completely whole, uncut, uncooked, uncleaned, and unprocessed in any way. Everyone else is being UNHEALTHY!!

But you still need to be extra careful, because many foods contain chemicals!

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#175

Post by uxcolumbo »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #143
uxcolumbo wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism = reduce animal suffering as much as possible. Why do you think it's extreme not wanting to cause animal death and suffering? On the other hand you could also argue that veganism attracts people who want to move away from the extremes of the animal and dairy industry, which contributes massively to our carbon footprint and biosphere destruction on top of causing unnecessary animal suffering.

> Why do you think it's extreme not wanting to cause animal death and suffering? That's a (lazy) strawman [edit: because it that has nothing to do with what I wrote and unfortunately also seems to be a common Pavlovian response to any criticism]. If you want to make a constructive reply I will gladly engage with it.

Replying to your edited comment...

I understood your comment as saying that veganism is seen as an extreme act.

But veganism is far from that. Veganism isn't dogmatic. It's pragmatic as per the official definition.

E.g. if you are on a hike and you get lost and have to survive by hunting, even though you usually don't eat animals - you could still call yourself vegan - because you need to hunt to survive.

Or something simpler - if you have your own chickens and eat their eggs and you don't intend to slaughter the chickens later on- I'd class that as vegan, because you're not harming the chickens.

But I agree with you - people who promote veganism as a dogmatic philosophy can be seen as extreme.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#176

Post by cies »

Veganism is an attitude towards the suffering and commodity status of animals. Being vegan you agree to boycott of products/services that entail animal suffering, "as much as possible".

Vegetarianism, by contrast, is exclusively a diet that excludes dead animals.

Plant-based is a diet that does not include the products that a derived from animals. Basically the diet component veganism. Though products that are produced with the help of animals (like monkeys in coconut production) is certainly not vegan, but still plant based.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#177

Post by mytailorisrich »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #175
mytailorisrich wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think it's extreme not wanting to cause animal death and suffering? That's a (lazy) strawman [edit: because it that has nothing to do with what I wrote and unfortunately also seems to be a common Pavlovian response to any criticism]. If you want to make a constructive reply I will gladly engage with it.

Replying to your edited comment... I understood your comment as saying that veganism is seen as an extreme act. But veganism is far from that. Veganism isn't dogmatic. It's pragmatic as per the official definition. E.g. if you are on a hike and you get lost and have to survive by hunting, even though you usually don't eat animals - you could still call yourself vegan - because you need to hunt to survive. Or somethin…

> and eat their eggs and you don't intend to slaughter the chickens later on- I'd class that as vegan, because you're not harming the chickens.

You cannot make your own definition of 'veganism' as you go, that makes any discussion impossible even without your strawman argument.

What you describe here is not veganism (no animal products at all, including things like honey), it's a common flavour of vegetarianism (no killing of animals).

In the definition of 'veganism' you quoted from the Vegan Society, there is 'exploitation'. Veganism sees eating eggs or honey as exploitation no matter how well treated the animals are, which is why it is off-limits. That same goes with wearing wool, for instance.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#178

Post by chc »

dmitriid wrote: post #171
chc wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are not the natural forms of any animal's meat any more than they are the natural forms of vegetables. What you actually seem to be saying is "How dare vegetarians prepare their food in similar ways to how I do?" The idea that vegans are being sneaky with their foods is kind of funny considering the usual reputation of vegans is best captured in the joke "How do you know if someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they…

> Those are not the natural forms of any animal's meat any more than they are the natural forms of vegetables. Ah yes. The non-natural form of "vegetables that taste like pork hamburger". Funnily how you never see meat producst disguised or sold as replicas of non-meat products.

Animal products are constantly stuck into foods that are not clearly animal-derived. Every vegan is familiar with the experience of having to read the ingredients list on foods to look for random animal products or ask waiters if (for example) their Brussels sprouts are vegan. Many people don't realize that Jello is an animal products. Some "vanilla" flavoring is made from animals. Confectioner's glaze, many food colorings, Starburst candy, etc. And meat is very often covered or marinated in vegetables during preparation, leading to meat the incorporates the flavors of vegetables. The idea that vegetarians invented the concept of making a food look or taste different from its natural form is simply unrealistic.

But more fundamentally, I'm not sure what you're getting at. If "giving foods a different flavor or texture" were a totally new idea that vegetarians came up with, so what? Are you allergic to vegetables, but constantly being tricked into eating vegan food? What is the problem here?

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#179

Post by mfer »

feoren wrote: post #174
mfer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Plant based” Is a popular marketing term for processed food. The plant based diet folks will tell you that this is basically junk food. They do this looking at what’s in the food and the science of it. They will tell you to eat plants instead of processed food.

> They will tell you to eat plants instead of processed food. Just be very careful if you do this! Don't cut or chop the plants in any way, since that's technically processing it. Don't apply any form of heat -- applying heat is one of society's most common forms of industrial processing ! Don't wash or clean the plant at all, as that is also a form of processing. You must carefully lower the whole plant down your es…

If you look at the health of foods on our bodies, there is a difference between cooking/cutting/seasoning plants and what we do with factory processed foods.

Taking things out of context to attack them doesn’t help you or anyone else be healthy.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#180

Post by hobbitstan »

drewg123 wrote: post #104
hobbitstan wrote: post #2

‘Plant based’ initially meant vegan, but vegan is a dirty word for some people, likely because a lot of the early vegan meat alternatives were ghastly. As a vegan, I see a lot of labels boasting ‘plant-based’ but no mention of it being vegan or not, often not even on their website. That alone means I will not purchase. It’s either not vegan OR they’re scared to put that 5 letter word on their product. Market it as pl…

If you're not buying it because of the case where they're scared to label something which is vegan as such, then you're part of the problem and you're hurting veganism. What matters is reducing climate impact, reducing animal cruelty, and the health benefits. What doesn't matter is your feelings about labels. By boycotting such products, you're reducing their market, potentially causing them to drop their plant based…

If they go out of their way avoid saying it’s vegan then I won’t waste my time on it as it may not actually be vegan, despite the listed ingredients. It’s suspicious.
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