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On ‘Plant-Based’

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Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#161

Post by uxcolumbo »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #143
uxcolumbo wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism = reduce animal suffering as much as possible. Why do you think it's extreme not wanting to cause animal death and suffering? On the other hand you could also argue that veganism attracts people who want to move away from the extremes of the animal and dairy industry, which contributes massively to our carbon footprint and biosphere destruction on top of causing unnecessary animal suffering.

> Why do you think it's extreme not wanting to cause animal death and suffering? That's a (lazy) strawman [edit: because it that has nothing to do with what I wrote and unfortunately also seems to be a common Pavlovian response to any criticism]. If you want to make a constructive reply I will gladly engage with it.

It was a genuine question.

If you look up the actual definition of veganism - it's all about not wanting to cause unnecessary suffering and destruction [0]

We live in a time where we don't need meat anymore to survive. Yes there are still regions of humans who need to hunt and farm animals as it's their only means of survival.

But I'm talking about us living in the western world who rely mostly on factory animal farms to provide meat and dairy. There are numerous studies that clearly show feeding the world with animal meat is not sustainable [1]

So what is extreme about not wanting to cause animal suffering and not wanting to support a food system that contributes heavily to biosphere destruction?

Where is the (lazy) strawman?

Again - genuine question.

[0] https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

[1] Just one of those studies: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environme... Many more from the UN and other universities.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#162

Post by ravenstine »

Accacin wrote: post #19
lmm wrote: post #9

For people who want to reduce meat consumption for environmentalist reasons, being strictly vegan would sometimes do more harm than good (e.g. almond "milk" involves more CO2 emissions than milk). So the concept of a meal that doesn't include large amounts of meat, without necessarily being vegan, is a valuable one.

No Vegan believes that everything they do is always the best for the environment - I just believe over the course of being a Vegan, I will end up reducing CO2 emissions overall. I'd imagine Almond milk is a miniscule part of a Vegan's diet compared to how much meat someone would eat anyway. This argument really annoys me because it seems like you're trying to discredit vegans and justify the act of eating meat to you…

Are you aware of how the carbon cycle works?

https://clear.ucdavis.edu/explainers/biogenic-carbon-cycle-a...

If methane from cattle was truly something to be concerned about, surely we'd be seeing an increase in the same carbon isotope as that in cattle methane in the atmosphere, except that's not what's happening.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00312-2

Not all sources of CO2 are concerning, and neither are all sources of methane.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#163

Post by uxcolumbo »

layer8 wrote: post #141
uxcolumbo wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veganism = reduce animal suffering as much as possible. Why do you think it's extreme not wanting to cause animal death and suffering? On the other hand you could also argue that veganism attracts people who want to move away from the extremes of the animal and dairy industry, which contributes massively to our carbon footprint and biosphere destruction on top of causing unnecessary animal suffering.

I guess it gets perceived as extreme-ish when it becomes an ideology constantly imposed in a combative fashion onto others.

Agree - the holier than thou attitude can be off putting.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#164

Post by squeaky-clean »

dmitriid wrote: post #22
edent wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do meat eaters disguise things as burgers, sausages, and nuggets?

They don't "disguise" things as burgers, sausages etc. That's how meat has been prepared since time immemorial across all cultures. Why do vegans and vegetarians insist on disguising vegetables as meat - now that's the question. Even though the same cultures have a mind-boggling variety of foods that don't involve meat, and don't pretend to be meat.

> Why do vegans and vegetarians insist on disguising vegetables as meat

Most of them don't. These are attempts by the manufacturers to sell vegan foods to meat-eaters.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#165

Post by qroolen »

mdip wrote: post #124

I share some of the concerns of the author, but I think she's failing to "never ascribe to malice ..." -- in this case "when there are a myriad of other, less malicious reasons that are probably the cause." I suspect the biggest reason companies are choosing "plant-based" (and including "vegan" somewhere less prominent, or maybe not at all) is because they want their products to appeal to both vegans and non-vegans.…

as far my experience goes, generally people who stick with veganism are doing it for ethics/morals... it is really hard to keep that life sty for health or environmental reasons, as it is pretty easy for humanity be sustainable while producing livestock (take a read about regenerative agriculture) if we really want or if we implement regulations towards it

i think i got 2 weeks of veganism when i first tried for health, then i got how healthy and cheap one can be with some ocean fish here and there, eggs etc. some weeks of pause and then the moral part hitted pretty hard and i am going strong for +4 years now

i still carve it when i get in events that have it (i used to eat and like it a lot) but one thing i noticed is that after trying to copy or have some substitute for animal stuff, the thing just flows... the fungi and flora kingdom is pretty vast and there is a lot to-do than worrying in trying to get a fake burguer or cheese

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#166

Post by mfer »

derbOac wrote: post #6

I've tended to see the term "plant-based" as synonymous with "vegan and/or vegetarian", used when there's variability or uncertainty about which of those more specific terms would apply. "Meatless" would also suffice but I think "plant-based" is used to emphasize what is present rather than absent. But I think the essay is right the term has become vaguer than that even, and my own understanding of it doesn't quite m…

“Plant based” Is a popular marketing term for processed food.

The plant based diet folks will tell you that this is basically junk food. They do this looking at what’s in the food and the science of it. They will tell you to eat plants instead of processed food.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#168

Post by Somatochlora »

dmitriid wrote: post #22
edent wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do meat eaters disguise things as burgers, sausages, and nuggets?

They don't "disguise" things as burgers, sausages etc. That's how meat has been prepared since time immemorial across all cultures. Why do vegans and vegetarians insist on disguising vegetables as meat - now that's the question. Even though the same cultures have a mind-boggling variety of foods that don't involve meat, and don't pretend to be meat.

Because they like the taste/texture/form factor/etc. of meat but are avoiding it for other reasons.

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#169

Post by wahnfrieden »

derbOac wrote: post #6

I've tended to see the term "plant-based" as synonymous with "vegan and/or vegetarian", used when there's variability or uncertainty about which of those more specific terms would apply. "Meatless" would also suffice but I think "plant-based" is used to emphasize what is present rather than absent. But I think the essay is right the term has become vaguer than that even, and my own understanding of it doesn't quite m…

"Plant-based" in Japan often somehow still includes meat ingredients

Re: On ‘Plant-Based’

#170

Post by Waterluvian »

Is it not all just an attempt at re-branding to avoid the stigma attached to the labels? A subgroup turned “vegan” into a culture and now the word is broken for use as an objective descriptor.
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