171–180 of 241 posts
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What else do you do with someone who is relentlessly rude?
You ignore them, or ban them from communities that you control. You don't try to expand your scope of influence and force other people to do so as well, leave that decision to them!
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> Or it's a community of Jerks. If you think they’re jerks then don’t join in. If they think you’re a jerk they won’t want you to join in. It’s not the mystery you’re making it out to be. If many people tell you that by their norms you’re rude then by definition you’re rude as that’s the definition of rude - not meeting social norms for interaction in a given situation which is causing people to be upset. If you don’…
> If you think they’re jerks then don’t join in. You don't know until you don't know. > If they think you’re a jerk they won’t want you to join in. Which is why Mozilla as a brand is as toxic as the inside of Chernobyl reactor core. > You’re arguing against your own position! Not really. I'm arguing against the hypocrisy of "openess". Proud boys say they are for free speech, but then, as you correctly state, they wou…
Open to people who aren’t jerks. Again I don’t think that’s a mystery - it’s implicit in any community and is even made explicit through their CoC if you can’t judge social norms yourself.
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I decided to check them out again, as I couldn’t even remember what my issues with them were when they were new. Well, now I can say: So slow. It made me think it might be electron, but apparently it’s based on thunderbird, so I guess TB is also slow, or they are doing something wrong.
> so I guess TB is also slow I'm a long-term TB user. I have noticed fairly severe UI lag in recent releases - say, the last couple of years. E.g. I click on a folder in the left pane, and it takes up to a second for the contents to appear and the folder be highlighted. Not every time, but often enough to cause input mistakes. Other applications running at the same time do not exhibit this lag. I haven't reported a b…
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Brilliant jerks almost always have a net negative impact on a project when you factor in their adverse effects on their teammates. The existence of a competing fork might be healthy, though. Having competition can make your priorities a lot clearer.
The Vim/Neovim is a great natural experiment on this. Vim is a highly successful project for decades. And one could correctly attribute much of that success to Bram Moolenaar's driving it. And yet, once Neovim was created with a much "nicer" and broader leadership team, innovation has absolutely skyrocketed, where it's highly likely that Neovim has almost completely replaced Vim as the preferred editor for most Vim u…
> I wouldn't be surprised if neovim starts replacing vim in distributions within a couple of years.
That would be highly disruptive as Neovim isn't compatible with Vim. Plus Vim is still actively developed with no signs of slowing down.
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This is my take, too. Went to the site, and it's very apparent that it's a "Revenge Inside (TM)" project. Left in 30 seconds. Will probably forget the existence of the project sometime today.
Why exactly do you care what the maintainer's motivations are if the result is a better application?
First, the maintainers' attitude directly affects the community around the software being developed. I tend to involve in the community of the tools I use (bug reports, patches if I have time, feedback, etc.).
If the maintainers or the BDFL is angry, this anger or harshness tend to spread, and both makes the project unpleasant to communicate with, and tend to drive wannabe contributors away. This generally happens silently, so it's hard to detect.
This brings me to the second point. Motivation is the primary fuel of open source & free software projects. What happens when the angry people calms down? What happens differentiating features are merged to main? What happens the locomotives of the community have no more time to pursue their projects?
If the community is not nice (or not have a healthy number of newcomers) and the steam runs out, the project just dies.
As an example, I'm currently trying to help a tool I use, but its developer just lost interest to maintain. However, there's a small number of kind people who stepped up, and we try to get things rolling again. Many people won't have the motivation if the community is not nice to begin with.
Lastly, while tangential, like the GP, I don't want to take sides, just want to read my emails.
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You mean like Linus or countless others did with Linux eh and a bunch of other world class open source projects? This is the lie people like you keep purporting in those VC money firehoses that have no grounds in the real world.
Linux is doing well. We don't know how what would have happened if Linus hadn't frozen out several kernel contributors before working on himself. I've seen the effect of a brilliant jerk first hand. People leave. I'm sure it's often a net negative. Btw, calling this discussion a "lie" comes across as overly aggressive.
In the end, details like this matter a great deal.
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> by your standards. Which I try to form by querying as many people as possible from as many countries as possible, which my job requires on a daily basis. > I could be one that think that your insistence on writing that your messages are "kind and neutral" it's a sign of arrogance. Of course you can, by your standards. By my colleagues from many different nationalities and age groups does not share your sentiment. >…
> Which I try to form by querying as many people as possible from as many countries as possible, which my job requires on a daily basis. but not to the person telling you they do not agree with you. so you're basically cherry picking. it is called selection bias. > By my colleagues from many different nationalities and age groups does not share your sentiment. selection bias again. maybe they are too kind to tell you…
> maybe they are too kind to tell you the truth, who knows.
You don't know the people I communicate with and what they say, what we discuss, and what feedback they provide.
Also, having selection bias amongst ~300 (possibly more) people in 15 years is fat chance.
Let's not assume, please. :)
> So, again, acceptance and tolerance are much more important than blindly applying the rules or trying to be kind at all costs.
> Enforcement does not.
Did I ever try to enforce your tone in your comments during our short communication? I made a remark about it once, because you made a remark about mine. Other than that I just try to extract what are you trying to say to me. I reflected your tone back at you a couple of times, too.
I'm not a person who tries to win arguments and write scores to a black book to derive some enjoyment from it. I just try to converse and learn.
My comments, contact points, what I do and what I say are in the open. You can always give feedback about them. This why they are at the open.
And yes, the stressful parts are done for today.
Thanks for the chat again. :)
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> The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are pretty concerning Can you describe what is concerning? I'm not going to look into email threads just because someone says there is something concerning there. What are your concerns? I'm not here to defend them, but I am lazy. If there are concerns, what are they? I figure if they're concerning enough, they can be described in a few sentences.
It's not very long, but to summarize: it is alleged that the developer violated community participation guidelines in several different ways, and thus is temporarily suspended. The developer replies that the council does not have the authority to suspend them for ; the only response to the allegations was that arguing in bad faith (only one of the several allegations) was impossible to prove.
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I think he is referring to the massive fallout after Brendan Eich (one of the founders of Mozilla and now founder of Brave) donated some money to a socially conservative political campaign (I forgot what one). Brendan "quit" Mozilla, but many people consider that he was kinda forced to quit.
It was the 2008 California Proposition 8 which banned same-sex marriage. Its worth noting at the time that 52% of Californians agreed with him and 48% were against. It wasn't until 2014 when he was cancelled for it and people were calling it an "extreme" position. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8
More precisely, that's 52% of less than 80% of registered voters.
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I cannot find any search result that slightly or strongly support your claim that "Brave browser creator was banned from Mozilla". Any links?
It's complicated. Brave was founded by Brendan Eich, long-time Mozilla developer, long-time Mozilla CTO, briefly Mozilla CEO. Brendan Eich also happened to be an anti-gay-marriage activist and donator (afaik, only his spare time, not at work) and California law says that if you donate more than [some sum of money], you must specify your employer. So, suddenly, a few days after Brendan Eich was nominated CEO, someone…
AFAIK he only donated some money in 2008; I can't find anything on him being an "activist"?
And 2008 was the same year Obama said "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage." Although Obama did support it a few years later (2012). And the prop 8 he donated to was actually passed, so a majority of CA residents at the time agreed with him. My point is, it was a mainstream view (and to some degree, still is, although less so).
For what it's worth, I strongly support same-sex marriage, but I feel this ostracisation of anyone who disagreed is not doing the cause any good... Oh well, old drama...