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Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

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Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#141
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Thunderbird closed shop, I went with Postbox, still do. I just need a client that works, and it has served me well.

I decided to check them out again, as I couldn’t even remember what my issues with them were when they were new. Well, now I can say: So slow. It made me think it might be electron, but apparently it’s based on thunderbird, so I guess TB is also slow, or they are doing something wrong.

> so I guess TB is also slow

I'm a long-term TB user. I have noticed fairly severe UI lag in recent releases - say, the last couple of years. E.g. I click on a folder in the left pane, and it takes up to a second for the contents to appear and the folder be highlighted. Not every time, but often enough to cause input mistakes. Other applications running at the same time do not exhibit this lag.

I haven't reported a bug; it's so noticeable, I assume someone else already has.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#142
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Linus himself did think that his behavior was a big enough issue that he took serious steps to do something about it, and is now a completely different person in mailing lists. But note that your parent comment said "almost always", not "always". The Linux project isn't exactly typical.

> Linus himself did think that his behavior was a big enough issue that he took serious steps to do something about it He really did not. He simply aged and had kids. With age everything looks "not important enough to be upset by" Believe me.

> He really did not.

Why would I believe your guess instead of his actual statement?

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> by your standards. Which I try to form by querying as many people as possible from as many countries as possible, which my job requires on a daily basis. > I could be one that think that your insistence on writing that your messages are "kind and neutral" it's a sign of arrogance. Of course you can, by your standards. By my colleagues from many different nationalities and age groups does not share your sentiment. >…

> Which I try to form by querying as many people as possible from as many countries as possible, which my job requires on a daily basis.

but not to the person telling you they do not agree with you.

so you're basically cherry picking. it is called selection bias.

> By my colleagues from many different nationalities and age groups does not share your sentiment.

selection bias again.

maybe they are too kind to tell you the truth,

who knows?

> Oh. Normally I'm not like that, but today's very stressful. I might have lost some of it today. Honestly, sorry.

that's what happens to anybody when misread.

So, again, acceptance and tolerance are much more important than blindly applying the rules or trying to be kind at all costs.

Honestly goes a long way among friendly, fallible, human, people.

Enforcement does not.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... it's not a question of "I declared it, so you will do it". It's a question of "You broke the rules once; you can stay in timeout for a week or we can ban you entirely". Would you be bothered if they'd skipped the first part and just banned them from their gruop for making trouble?

I am fine with any judgment Mozilla make on infrastructure that they run and that belongs directly to the project, such as mailing lists, official chatrooms, etc. It's the addition of "unofficial" social platforms that irks me; it seems totalitarizing. Interaction of contributors outside the project ecosystem is none of their business. I prefer for society to be sliced "horizontally", rather than "vertically". I am n…

I think I understand you, and I think I broadly agree, but in this case the restriction was specifically on contacting other thunderbird members; that seems like it's clearly still a vertical slice to me.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the vote? > If 90% of the community think you’re a jerk then it’s probably you that’s the jerk. Or it's a community of Jerks. Proud boys think I am a jerk, for sure.

> Or it's a community of Jerks. If you think they’re jerks then don’t join in. If they think you’re a jerk they won’t want you to join in. It’s not the mystery you’re making it out to be. If many people tell you that by their norms you’re rude then by definition you’re rude as that’s the definition of rude - not meeting social norms for interaction in a given situation which is causing people to be upset. If you don’…

> If you think they’re jerks then don’t join in.

You don't know until you don't know.

> If they think you’re a jerk they won’t want you to join in.

Which is why Mozilla as a brand is as toxic as the inside of Chernobyl reactor core.

> You’re arguing against your own position!

Not really.

I'm arguing against the hypocrisy of "openess".

Proud boys say they are for free speech, but then, as you correctly state, they wouldn't let me speak at one of their rallies.

Mozilla says they are open, but then their bans are written by someone who's in love with medieval torture.

The only missing bit of fun in their e-mail is being forced to sleep in an iron maiden.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with any judgment Mozilla make on infrastructure that they run and that belongs directly to the project, such as mailing lists, official chatrooms, etc. It's the addition of "unofficial" social platforms that irks me; it seems totalitarizing. Interaction of contributors outside the project ecosystem is none of their business. I prefer for society to be sliced "horizontally", rather than "vertically". I am n…

I think I understand you, and I think I broadly agree, but in this case the restriction was specifically on contacting other thunderbird members; that seems like it's clearly still a vertical slice to me.

I think what makes it horizontal for me is that you can't "go home and stop being a Thunderbird member". A "Thunderbird member" is something you are, rather than something you do. So this effectively asserts project ownership over the person.

This is why I don't care what they do on project media like ML. That's a social space that's reserved for the project itself, so fair's fair. It's part of their slice, but "Twitter, Facebook and Telegram" is not. It's like a school deciding that a child is a bad influence and isn't allowed to have a sleepover with another child in the same class. You have authority over them as long as they're in your care, and not one second longer.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linus himself did think that his behavior was a big enough issue that he took serious steps to do something about it He really did not. He simply aged and had kids. With age everything looks "not important enough to be upset by" Believe me.

> He really did not. Why would I believe your guess instead of his actual statement?

because he actually did nothing about it until he was fully involved.

i.e. until he was ~50 years old, when he stepped aside

his words (Sun, 16 Sep 2018):

This is my reality. I am not an emotionally empathetic kind of person and that probably doesn't come as a big surprise to anybody. Least of all me. The fact that I then misread people and don't realize (for years) how badly I've judged a situation and contributed to an unprofessional environment is not good. [...] I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately.

Which is the same things Stallman said after they tried to push him out.

Linus is just smarter than Stallman, was preoccupied at the time that Linux development was being taken over, and released a public statement that made people happy, bu also he haven't changed much [1], because, in the end, he is who he is and we should appreciate him for what he's achieved.

[1] a year later he released this statement

people take me seriously in a way they didn't do back in 1994.

And that's absolutely not some kind of complaint about how I wasn't taken seriously back then – quite the reverse. It's more me grumbling that people take me much too seriously now, and I can't say silly stupid crap anymore.

So I'll still call out people (and particularly companies) for doing dumb things, but now I have to do it knowing that it's news, and me giving some company the finger will be remembered for a decade afterwards.

Whether deserved or not, it might not be worth it.

He realized that people were trojan horsing his words against Linux.

But he's Linus Torvalds, he's in the unfortunate position of being the face and image of the most successful OSS project ever, not some guy on a mailing list about Thunderbird, that nobody cares of.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#148
post #29

> Multi-line view like in Outlook, Lotus Notes and Postbox > Betterbird: Yes! > Thunderbird: No, requested since 2003 Wonderful! Back in the mid-2000s, this annoyed me enough to switch from Thunderbird to Outlook for work mail. Great to hear they had to fork the project to match the delicious UI of Lotus Notes. Honestly since then I haven't thought much about local PC mail clients to even consider any alternatives. A…

I mean but did I miss something or Thunderbird is open source? Like the author lists a bunch of functionalities that were requested for Thunderbird but weren't implemented, but they implemented in Betterbird, was it a bad thing to maybe create a pull request for Thunderbird to keep a single product? Or spotlight was the main objective?

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#149
I am mostly happy with Thunderbird.

However, I had a lot of difficulties to obtain a unified inbox/sent for each of my mail account. I succeeded by creating saved search under local folders for each mail account that unifies inbox and sent. Unfortunately I got some issues (sometimes empty title for mail, and a delay upon reception of new mails).

I previously tried to obtain the same thing with unified view.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#150
post #75

I firmly believe there are two classes of email, those who use exchange servers and those who dont. While i dont really care so much about the mail client in itself, I would gladly use something else besides outlook, if it would integrate itself into the exchange protocol so well. It feels like E-Mail is a solved problem, but its really not we all have just more or less agreed that its good enough. I Remember when i…

While I personally am mostly happy with using Exchange via IMAP (through Postbox), and therefore cannot speak to or against it, there is Owl[1]. Have you ever tried that, and if so, what's your experience been like? [1]: https://www.beonex.com/owl/

I use OWL every day for work email for OWA and it works decently
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