Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#171

Post by mcv » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #82

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the Turkish perspective, why would they allow someone who supports their enemies to join the alliance? I guess both Swedish and Finnish government would both need to swallow a few frogs to comply with these requirements. At least, they won't be able to maintain a moral high horse over Turkey any more after complying.

> From the Turkish perspective, why would they allow someone who supports their enemies to join the alliance? This makes it sound like Sweden does something that other NATO members don't. That's not the case. Sweden supports the SDC in syria, which supports the YPG, which is connected to the PKK. And this is controversial in several of the countries that do this, including the US. While it's true that it's Sweden app…

Exactly. Turkey's objection doesn't really have much to do with Sweden and Finland, it's more an opportunity for Turkey to get concessions from other NATO members on an issue on which Turkey disagrees with the rest of NATO: the Kurds.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#172

Post by pydry » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

macintux wrote: post #43

kome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

The problem with de-escalation is this: what compromise is possible here? Ukraine should just give up its independence and land and ability to seek justice for the horrific war crimes? Russia has the power to de-escalate by withdrawing. Ukraine has the power to de-escalate by ceasing to exist.

Abide by Minsk II, officially cede crimea (according to gallup this is what 80-90% of crimeans want), disband azov and promise never to join NATO.

Theres a perfectly clear deescalation path and has been since before the war started. This war was many things but inevitable was never one of them.

Deescalation is the last thing NATO or the US wants though.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#173

Post by bnralt » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

fabian2k wrote: post #65

If you have a neighbour that invades sovereign countries, it makes sense to seek strong allies. This is a direct result of Russia invading Ukraine, it doesn't matter how much Russia complains now.

This whole thing has made me reevaluate the way the Cuban Missile Crisis is portrayed in the U.S. It's usually held up as an example of great presidential leadership, with almost no push back.

But if you look at the history it's fascinating. The U.S. launched an invasion to try to overthrow the Cuban government during the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion. Then it moved nuclear missiles up to the USSR's border in Turkey (the U.S. was also considering nuclear first strikes against the USSR around this time[1]). Then Cuba asked for the USSR to station nuclear missiles to deter an invasion, the USSR complied, which triggered the crisis. The world was brought to the brink of nuclear war as the U.S. blockaded the country and prepared for an invasion if its demands weren't met.

This isn't to defend the current invasion, just to see how these kinds of actions can be celebrated in a country to the extent that most of the citizens don't even have the slightest idea that they could be anything but a heroic defense of homeland. Sometimes it's only when a mirror is held up to us that we're really able to look at things from another angle.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/10/jfks-fi...

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#174

Post by jimbob45 » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:41 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #127

So does everyone here speak Swedish except me, or are we all chatting about an article we can't read? Here's an English article saying the same, just to maintain the illusion. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/14/europe/sweden-finland-nato-ne...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/16/russia-finland...

Another article on the matter. I was in the same boat as you, friend.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#175

Post by mcv » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #61

arroz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering turkey controls the Black Sea, I doubt they would be kicked out At the same time, I don’t think they would say no anyway

They'd definitely be kicked out at this point if push came to shove. No doubt about that. There's no value in a member who doesn't cooperate. Both Finland and Sweden are very much aligned with the rest of NATO and if member states object to them joining you basically set the precedent that one member state (that's not the US/UK) can hold the group hostage. There's no way that would be tolerated, regardless of the str…

I really don't think so. Turkey is in a very strategic location. Turkey has leverage and a very good chance of getting the concessions they want. Which is sad, because I care about the Kurds, and they seemed to be one of the few good, humane groups in Syria.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#176

Post by jimbob45 » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #150

So let's recount what Putin has achieved in the last 3 months: 1. Failed to conquer all of Ukraine; 2. Failed to capture Kyiv; 3. Failed to make meaningful gains in the Donbass; 4. Failed to decapitate Ukraine's leadership; 5. Suffered huge casulaties; 6. Done massive damage to the perception of Russia's military (and thus the power it can project); 7. Done more for NATO solidarity than probably anything else in the…

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-11/russian-r...

The Ruble is the world's top growing currency this year. The analysts seem to believe that it won't stay on top but that's certainly a positive note for Russia.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#177

Post by alkonaut » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:43 PM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #6

martythemaniak wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had to choose, NATO would probably rather have Sweden and Finland in and Turkey out. Here's an interesting thread on Finland's strategic importance: https://twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1525959053490458624

But NATO can't choose because getting rid of a prior member of an alliance undermines the very idea and value of the alliance.

NATO has no provisions for evicting a member. It would need to form a separate alliance and all the others would join that one and leave NATO. And about the only reason that would conceivably ever happen is if a member grossly violated the values of all the others. Turkey despite being mostly non-democratic isn’t even close I’d imagine.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#178

Post by teddyh » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:43 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #127

So does everyone here speak Swedish except me, or are we all chatting about an article we can't read? Here's an English article saying the same, just to maintain the illusion. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/14/europe/sweden-finland-nato-ne...

https://www.thelocal.se/20220516/swedish-pm-and-opposition-l...

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#179

Post by Gravityloss » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:44 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #150

So let's recount what Putin has achieved in the last 3 months: 1. Failed to conquer all of Ukraine; 2. Failed to capture Kyiv; 3. Failed to make meaningful gains in the Donbass; 4. Failed to decapitate Ukraine's leadership; 5. Suffered huge casulaties; 6. Done massive damage to the perception of Russia's military (and thus the power it can project); 7. Done more for NATO solidarity than probably anything else in the…

Putin has been writing and speaking about this for years. He really thinks Russia should control other Slavic people, and former territories of Russia and Soviet Union etc. And it's not only Putin. Most of the other high ranking officials must have been supporting the attack into Ukraine, otherwise it would not have happened. If it was him alone against everyone else, Putin would simply have been replaced. A large portion of the Russian population also supports the attack.

It is no fluke. You can't pin it on one "madman". It's as if the majority Russian people in Russia genuinely think they should control the land and people that is Ukraine. It's not all people. There are anti-war protests, millions of people have left Russia, and there are dissidents.

To somehow recover from this, it would require some deep reflection on what Russia really is, and what is its role in humanity. I'm afraid it will take some drastic events before people are able to question themselves to that level. It would begin with the philosophers and poets.

Re: Sweden to Apply for NATO Membership

#180

Post by alkonaut » Mon, May 16, 2022, 3:44 PM UTC

kome wrote: post #37

m00dy wrote: post #2

But turks said no.

Turks are trying to establish some diplomatic bridge with Russia; that's very good. Russian aggression in Ukraine is terrible, but I feel the US are not trying to de-escalate anything. They are in full proxy-war mode. This can be very dangerous for Europe. France and Germany also would like to have more diplomacy, just like Turkey. Those countries have to live next to Russia - and maintaining a diplomatic relationshi…

There was no problem having diplomatic relations with Germany after WW2. Relations were poor with nazi Germany and they are poor with Putin’s Russia.