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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#171

Post by pintxo »

credit_guy wrote: post #154

I read Mearsheimer's "Tragedy of Great Power Politics", and I think it's one of the most important books ever written. It completely changed the way I think about what's going on in the world. That being said, I think on the topic of Russia and Ukraine, Mearsheimer is not consistent with his own theory (defensive realism). I completely understand why Putin is doing what he's doing, his actions are very well explained…

> But to say that what Russia is doing is somehow US's fault, that really does not make any sense.

My take on it is: if you willingly push a bear in a tight corner, you have it coming when he starts biting and fighting.

Now, this is no valid excuse for me when it comes to nation states and their actions, but nations are just run by humans, aren't they?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#172

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Is he just casually talking about toppling democracies and installing autocratic leaders in nations around the globe for the benefit of America? I thought the US was past that phase, and I suppose if this guy is angry that they're not following his advice and doing it, then maybe they are.

> Nobody seriously thought that Russia was a threat before February 22, 2014

"Russia, this is, without question, our number one geopolitical foe," -- presidential hopeful Mitt Romney, 2012

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#173

Post by dragonwriter »

mcguire wrote: post #166
s1artibartfast wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why did Russia raise the stakes in December? Sure, NATO's eastward push has demonstrably increased tensions but the eastward push has been frozen since about 2014 since countries can't join NATO if they have territorial conflicts. Formal joining was on hold, but everything else was accelerating since 2014. Most notably arms shipments, military funding, and NATO/US troops in Ukraine. At some point, there are simply t…

" ...NATO/US troops in Ukraine... " Do you have a source for that? Don't forget, " On June 1, 1996, Ukraine became a non-nuclear nation, sending the last of the 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads it had inherited from the Soviet Union to Russia for dismantling. Ukraine had committed to this by signing the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances in January 1994. " That was certainly a stupid idea.

> Do you have a source for that?

US and other Western troops (not NATO per se, though I think all were NATO members) were openly present in Ukraine training the Ukraine military up until shortly before the recent Russian escalation of their long-running invasion of Ukraine (they were pulled out to avoid getting caught up in direct combat with Russia in the event of an invasion.)

EDIT: if you need a source, here's an article on the US/UK trainers being withdrawn: https://www.forbes.com/sites/annakaplan/2022/02/12/us-uk-pul...

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#174

Post by lsllc »

mcguire wrote: post #166
s1artibartfast wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why did Russia raise the stakes in December? Sure, NATO's eastward push has demonstrably increased tensions but the eastward push has been frozen since about 2014 since countries can't join NATO if they have territorial conflicts. Formal joining was on hold, but everything else was accelerating since 2014. Most notably arms shipments, military funding, and NATO/US troops in Ukraine. At some point, there are simply t…

" ...NATO/US troops in Ukraine... " Do you have a source for that? Don't forget, " On June 1, 1996, Ukraine became a non-nuclear nation, sending the last of the 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads it had inherited from the Soviet Union to Russia for dismantling. Ukraine had committed to this by signing the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances in January 1994. " That was certainly a stupid idea.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/12/pentagon-orders-departure-of...

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#175

Post by prostoalex »

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

> We encouraged Zelensky to talk about acquiring nukes, grabbing Crimea back, grabbing Luhansk and Donestk, joining NATO and the EU, etc.

This seems to be a US-centric view of the world, which assumes that Ukraine following blindly in whatever encouragement was provided.

Zelensky is Ukraine’s 7th President, 3 years into his term. Ukraine has had administrations that were Russia-centric (two Kuchma terms, and then half of Yanukovich’s term) and in economic terms those did not pan out to be impressive.

Ukrainian companies seem to crave access to European markets, as in many core areas (grains, livestock, aviation, machinery) they are competing with Russia. In energy consumption Ukraine also seems to get a better price for Russian natural gas when they are part of EU monopsony, negotiating a bulk discount, vs one-off negotiations.

Is it too radical to assume that Ukrainians were acting out of self interest?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#176

Post by mcguire »

empressplay wrote: post #21
majormajor wrote: post #9

Mearsheimer also is directly blaming Ukraine here in a way that hardly seems reasonable. "When you’re a country like Ukraine and you live next door to a great power like Russia, you have to pay careful attention to what the Russians think, because if you take a stick and you poke them in the eye, they’re going to retaliate. States in the Western hemisphere understand this full well with regard to the United States."…

I'm Canadian. As a Canadian I am fully aware that my country exists strictly at the whim of the US. If we were to decide to form a military alliance with Russia, hosting Russian troops on our soil, Canada would be invaded by the US in a New York minute. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. It sucks of course but it is what it is. That is all he is saying.

I'll just note that Canadian-Cuban relations are a thing.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#177

Post by Grustaf »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #156
warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0…

The propaganda onslaught is unparalleled. Ukraine is painted as heaven on Earth, a beacon of democracy. McFaul even suggested that Putin essentially "hated Ukraine because it was free".

In reality Ukraine is even more corrupt than Russia, their economy is in terrible shape, despite having more natural resources than most, and a diligent educated population. GDP per capita is a third of Russia's, lower than Belarus! The elites, including Zelensky, are incredibly corrupt.

I love Ukraine, only had wonderful experiences there, but it's getting ridiculous.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#178

Post by ManuelKiessling »

331c8c71 wrote: post #122
steveylang wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day most people still have some sense of justice and morality (misguided or not.) In the interview, he could have acknowledged that these values still exist and influence the decisions of individuals and countries, without at all compromising his (many good) points about the politics of the region. The people of Ukraine have overturned a fraudulent election, overthrown a president who betrayed his c…

> The people of Ukraine have ... overthrown a president ... It's more accurate to say that some ukranian people have ousted the president and let US decide whom to put in place The country was split nearly 50/50 between pro-us and pro-russian. Surely enough the second half was cancelled after the coup (change in language laws for instance).

If this is true, and 50% of the Ukrainian people see this operation as a liberation – why, then, are people fleeing west, not east?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#179

Post by 331c8c71 »

mcguire wrote: post #164
ceilingcorner wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have studied this situation nonstop for the last week and I pretty much have the same opinion as you. If you ask a simple question, Cui bono? (Who benefits?) it becomes clear that it’s ultimately another military industrial complex project. The sad part is that the only real victims here are the Ukrainian people, who were led along with false promises. Had NATO been wiser, none of this would be happening.

Lessee here,... Following several hundred years of rule by Poland and then Russia, in 1991 the Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly for independence from Russia. (I assume you think that was a mistake?) Between 1991 and 2004, two the administrations of two presidents retained close ties to Russia. However, in 2004, in an election festooned with accusations of fraud (serious accusations, not Trump-accusations), another pro…

> 2014 led to the Euromaidan protests, complete with violence, that led to that government's collapse. This was the time when Russia annexed Crimea and civil war broke out in Donetsk and Luhansk

Your have written a lot but omitted the crucial details about the maidan. US instigated the coup and installed nationalistic government. The separatist tendencies were the direct result of that government's actions.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#180

Post by sidibe »

331c8c71 wrote: post #160
timeon wrote: post #137

As someone from Central and Eastern Europe - blaming U.S. or 'west' is just cope mechanism for some people in the west. "If we did this or that differently Russia would not attack". Well that may be just wishful thinking. But they haven`t realized that we are sovereign countries and it is not Russian business where we want to belong. Just ours. These so called "realists" haven`t considered one simple fact. Ukraine wa…

> Just ours. I understand your sentiment. The point is that in case of Ukraine the pro-russian half of the population did not want to be governed by us-installed government who started their reign by changing the language legislature in favor of the ukranian language. The anti-russian political tilt resulted in federalisation demands from the eastern regions as well as crimea which progressed into full-blown separati…

> pro-russian half of the population

Half?! Putin's propaganda is quite effective

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