Marketing is scary for a solo developer • Hacker News Board

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#171

Post by KronisLV » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #123

Invictus0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't want to deliver a high-impact product > earn some reasonable money These two are in opposition

I've worked on some seriously "low-impact" internal tools at large companies, and the pay was fine.

Aren't large and well paying companies a bit of an exception in many cases?

For example, here in Latvia we don't quite have such a large tech scene, outside of WITCH companies.

Thus, it feels like that argument isn't entirely valid in all that many circumstances.

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#172

Post by bastardoperator » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

A marketing director forced me into spamming our customers. I objected, said it's going to be a bad idea, copied everyone. He was furious I challenged his authority, told me I don't know a thing about marketing which is true. I do however know unsolicited email is not appreciated.

I eventually get overruled and flip on the spam machine. This is a Monday evening. By Tuesday noon our support lines are flooded, twitter is going wild, and people are actually leaving the service.

By Tuesday evening I'm asked to turn off the spam machine. So yes, it is scary especially when the people doing the marketing don't even understand basic internet etiquette.

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#173

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #71

magicroot75 wrote: post #26

I work solely in marketing/advertising and have no clue how to code. I generally enjoy technology, which is why I'm on HN. I think marketers and developers need a stronger culture between ourselves. The tools of marketers (data mining, consumer behavior analysis, surveys, market testing, etc) aren't just a veneer to be applied at the completion of a development project. Marketing, when done correctly, informs UX. Mar…

> Developers should be asking themselves during the development process: "Is this feature going to excite a group of users, and do we have some statistical mechanism to predict that excitement?" This is such a user-facing mindset. I’d say most of the development work I do isn’t even something the user will know about and definitely not get excited about. Also, I do not care about what happens after a feature gets bui…

I don't know, building the wrong thing in the right way, that never gets used by anyone, sounds kind of depressing to me.

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#174

Post by libertine » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #162

libertine wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scams, frauds, all leverage false advertising. But just because they use marketing tools to achieve that objective, it doesn't make marketing "evil" or "all about lies" - hell they're surely also using some tech stack to have the whole operation going. Does that make tech evil, or a vehicle to spread lies, scams, frauds? No. It's just what people do with it.

Any examples of marketeers in commercial companies refusing sales as a bad fit?

I don't understand your question, can you expand on it?

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#175

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #127

libertine wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my default view is that I don't want to lie or over-promise This is the greatest prejudice around marketing in the tech community. A simple exercise you can do that debunks that frame of thought: lies are unsustainable. Unless you're a government or a monopoly that has their predictable flow of revenue, lies aren't affordable. You can lie and scam people, but that's not a long term strategy, because you'll burn off…

I see Tesla's promises on self-driving cars over many years as lies. It doesn't see to have done them any harm so far.

It did some harm, but certainly not enough to detour Tesla from it's overall trajectory.

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#176

Post by stavros » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

elorant wrote: post #148

I have a simple rule for marketing which has proved to give nice results. Give a generous demo. Not that lame 15 days demo that most services provide. No one will manage to test your product in just 15 days. And even if they do it won’t help create a habit out of using it. Give three months instead. It gives them time to schedule a period of using it, and then it provides a cushion to get accustomed to it. I was test…

How many products of yours have you tested this on? How many days on average did your customers have before conversion? In my tests, users try the product for an average of a few minutes before converting. If they haven't bought by the end of the day (at least for my product), they'll basically never buy.

Given that, I might as well change my trial period to one day, which very much contradicts your results.

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#177

Post by stavros » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #96

dangrossman wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same situation. I bought a laser cutter and some other production equipment, and started making home decor. I sell pretty simple stuff, like door signs and coasters. Google Merchant Center also suspended my account for being "misleading". I have no ads, just a product feed for Google Shopping. They won't tell me what's "misleading" about my products.

Man, we should start a support group. PS: Now I know how I know your name :) Thanks for making that great HN responses email tool!

By the way, I made one for Telegram, if you use that:

https://gitlab.com/stavros/hn-reply-bot

I posted it but not many people seem to use Telegram, or find it useful?

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#178

Post by pc86 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #71

magicroot75 wrote: post #26

I work solely in marketing/advertising and have no clue how to code. I generally enjoy technology, which is why I'm on HN. I think marketers and developers need a stronger culture between ourselves. The tools of marketers (data mining, consumer behavior analysis, surveys, market testing, etc) aren't just a veneer to be applied at the completion of a development project. Marketing, when done correctly, informs UX. Mar…

> Developers should be asking themselves during the development process: "Is this feature going to excite a group of users, and do we have some statistical mechanism to predict that excitement?" This is such a user-facing mindset. I’d say most of the development work I do isn’t even something the user will know about and definitely not get excited about. Also, I do not care about what happens after a feature gets bui…

I don't think I've ever seen a more defensive comment on HN.

"User" doesn't mean the person clicking around a website. Someone is using your software, I hope?

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#179

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

davedx wrote: post #53

I take it one step further. Having worked with large marketing departments, I have decided I don’t like marketing at all. It tends to follow psychological tactics to gain attention, often in deceptive or underhanded ways. You van see this by looking at the kind of features products like Hubspot offer: lots of creepy “tracking” of leads. Contrast with sales: sales is about directly showing people your product and gett…

Can't tweets and blogs also help people solve problems in their business?

Re: Marketing is scary for a solo developer

#180

Post by syngrog66 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

magicroot75 wrote: post #26

I work solely in marketing/advertising and have no clue how to code. I generally enjoy technology, which is why I'm on HN. I think marketers and developers need a stronger culture between ourselves. The tools of marketers (data mining, consumer behavior analysis, surveys, market testing, etc) aren't just a veneer to be applied at the completion of a development project. Marketing, when done correctly, informs UX. Mar…

theres wisdom in what you advise, but I think theres one glitch with the wording which might cause a backlash. what you say a "developer" should be doing/thinking, is really not what a software engineer does or should be doing. you're talking about product development. in a small enough shop where a few people must where all the hats, sure one person might be wearing the product development and software engineering hats. in a larger, more established company, they will not.

the vast majority of folks in software engineering should not be thinking in terms of user exitement, or market value or brand positioning etc.

if I were a solo indie entrepreneur/engineer who had to wear all the hats I couldnt delegate to others? heck yes I should follow your advice.

marketing, product design and UX are all incredibly important. but they are not the responsibility, or anywhere in the top concerns, of a software engineer. for the business overall? heck yes