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Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

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Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#171

Post by Tomis02 »

0xy wrote: post #128
Tomis02 wrote: post #69

Australian soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan? Nobody bats an eyelid. Can't go to Kmart because the government tries to fight the pandemic? Riots in the streets. And you're surprised there's complacency to digital surveillance, when people are more outraged by slight personal discomfort than by murder. It's not even criticism, just an observation. People are very comfortable in their bubble and do not care…

Boiling the current lockdown regime to "can't shop in stores" is needlessly dismissive and reductionist. The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea…

To summarise what you're saying: "the government did some things wrong while fighting COVID". Sure, I don't disagree.

That said, are bad government policies worse than the murder of civilians? I'll let you guess which one is more likely to make me go out and protest. Of course I'll ridicule people who call Australia an authoritarian state over the suboptimal handling of a public health problem. First of all because I know what an authoritarian state actually looks like, and second because having temporary movement restrictions is only a mild inconvenience for most people. Also, your government actually wants you out of your house working and spending money, and they would much rather not have lockdowns at all than lose votes over this. I never thought I'd see the day where I talk about an Australian politician in a non-critical way, but here we are.

> foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country

Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit, as per the home affairs page. But to address your point, I can absolutely promise you that people did not go on protests for the sake of foreigners that couldn't leave Australia.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#172

Post by paranoidrobot »

postingawayonhn wrote: post #162
paranoidrobot wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that when you make protests illegal and meet them with riot police You've got that arse-about. They were met with regular uniformed police, like in the BLM protests that happened multiple times in the last 12-18 months. The BLM protesters managed to remain peaceful, didn't assault reporters, bystanders, or police, and didn't damage property. They protested, and then dispersed on their own. All while…

> They were met with regular uniformed police, like in the BLM protests that happened multiple times in the last 12-18 months. There were uniformed police there as well but they were definitely met by public order response teams who are much more heavily armoured/equipped and travel around in vehicles with blacked out windows. [1] [2] [3] [1] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXL5iC... [2] https:/…

That's why I said you've got it arse-about. You are getting the order of when things happened wrong.

You said:

> The problem is that when you make protests illegal and meet them with riot police only the most hardened/radical protesters will turn up.

This is not what happened. The initial response was, as is typical with all large scale protests - to have regular uniformed police monitoring it, and controlling traffic/the direction of the protest.

The specialist/better equipped teams like the Public Order Response Team are almost always on standby during a large protest/march. They're only deployed when things get heated or actually turn violent.

This is pretty much the same thing that happens in other western countries whenever there's a large protest.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#173

Post by Smoosh »

user123456780 wrote: post #152
pentae wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Australian I respectfully disagree with you and agree with the article - most Australians just don't care. I've consistently mentioned this to my Australian friends, colleagues, family members for about 10 years now and it's always met with complacency. Most people don't care, some people care but won't do anything about it, and some people think that "If i'm not doing anything wrong I have nothing to worry abo…

> Most people don't care, some people care but won't do anything about it, and some people think that "If i'm not doing anything wrong I have nothing to worry about". Most Australians trust the government will do the right thing. I think that is because of media portraying these laws as a positive thing. Almost exactly the line you're talking about. I'm pretty sure I have heard politicians saying exactly: "If i'm not…

> "If i'm not doing anything wrong I have nothing to worry about"

The irony being that the current government seems particularly opposed to any form of accountability or public scrutiny.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#174

Post by 0xy »

Tomis02 wrote: post #171
0xy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boiling the current lockdown regime to "can't shop in stores" is needlessly dismissive and reductionist. The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea…

To summarise what you're saying: "the government did some things wrong while fighting COVID". Sure, I don't disagree. That said, are bad government policies worse than the murder of civilians? I'll let you guess which one is more likely to make me go out and protest. Of course I'll ridicule people who call Australia an authoritarian state over the suboptimal handling of a public health problem. First of all because I…

>Only permanent residents are not allowed to leave without a permit

Must be outdated information, it was changed recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/06/austr...

>The Australian government has quietly expanded its ban on Australian citizens leaving the country to include people who are ordinarily residents in another country, meaning that even people who live overseas may not be allowed to leave Australia.

Absolutely despicable, and contrary to UN freedom of movement human rights charters -- of which Australia is a signatory.

When your country steps on basic human rights as defined by the UN, you no longer have an excuse to not call what's happening "authoritarian".

Sorry, but preventing foreign citizens from leaving by force is authoritarian. That's North Korea tier. No other Western country prevents outbound travel for non-citizens.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#175

Post by spikepuppet »

pedalpete wrote: post #62
spikepuppet wrote: post #4

As an Australian, I can definitely say I'm not complacent. The rise of all this surveillance here certainly unnerves me, and has definitely helped hasten my want to emmigrate ASAP.

This is unfortunate. I immigrated to Australia 10 years ago, and when I arrived, I was shocked by the level of acceptance of surveillance and even the police rights to search. I'm not an Australian citizen, but I make sure the Australians I know are aware that it isn't like this everywhere around the world. If you don't like it, it's better to try to change it or bring awareness than just leave.

Honestly, at this stage it feels like a losing battle. I try and raise awareness amongst friends and people I can talk too, and no one seems to care. It's making leaving seem more and more a viable option.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#176

Post by decryption »

fblp wrote: post #107

Is there an equivalent to the Electronic Frontiers Foundation or American Civil Liberties Union for Australia that i can donate to to advocate against this?

Electronic Frontiers Australia - https://www.efa.org.au/ and Digital Rights Watch - https://digitalrightswatch.org.au/

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#177

Post by spikepuppet »

ntSean wrote: post #58
spikepuppet wrote: post #4

As an Australian, I can definitely say I'm not complacent. The rise of all this surveillance here certainly unnerves me, and has definitely helped hasten my want to emmigrate ASAP.

You would immigrate to where exactly?

Good point, though anywhere where a powers haven't been given to law enforcement agencies to modify data would be good. And even more so and people are happy to just let it happen.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#178

Post by selcuka »

incompatible wrote: post #118
cheesecake_luvr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have good, progressive ideas and have time and energy, run for parliament. If Hanson, Katter, Christensen and all the other useless junk can get in, you have a chance. We do need a real progressive alternative in politics. Greens are good, but we need more.

If people are voting for the likes of Hanson, Katter, and Christensen over the other candidates, it's unlikely that a scientist or engineer would have much chance. You'd be standing either as an independent or Greens candidate.

As Douglas Adams famously said, "[...] one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them."

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#179

Post by selcuka »

nickcox wrote: post #126
pedalpete wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfortunate. I immigrated to Australia 10 years ago, and when I arrived, I was shocked by the level of acceptance of surveillance and even the police rights to search. I'm not an Australian citizen, but I make sure the Australians I know are aware that it isn't like this everywhere around the world. If you don't like it, it's better to try to change it or bring awareness than just leave.

> I was shocked by the level of acceptance of surveillance and even the police rights to search It's not even just the police - the goons on the doors of JB Hi-Fi will demand to root through your bags on your way out of the shop. Nobody even seems to question it.

To be fair this policy is usually stated as a condition of entry, which I believe is fair for a private company.

Re: Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

#180

Post by javagram »

6nf wrote: post #81
javagram wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The median covid death is 85 years old? Where did you get that number? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-... Using the US dataset as an example of mortality when covid-19 is allowed to spread unrestricted in a population, 700,952 died. Only 193k were 85 and older, so the median covid death must be younger than that - in the lower end of the 74-85 age cohort where another 185k have died.

I'm using the australian numbers So you found one number in my argument that you dont like and that invalidates my entire point? Is that what you're saying? What number would you prefer instead of the 85? Does that change everything?

Just realized (I think) you edited in the later sentences after I replied.

Yea, it does invalidate your point, the average years of life lost from a Covid-19 death is fourteen not a few as you suggested. Many, many people lost more than a decade of productive, happy life to this virus in countries where it was allowed to spread. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/16/americans-l...

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