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Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

reuters.com

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Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#171

Post by stjohnswarts »

akiselev wrote: post #158

> It's a complete change of narrative and there's no easy way to explain it and still defend Apple's Privacy narrative, wihout doing extreme mental gymnastics. Everyone who took Apple at their word was already doing extreme mental gymnastics because Apple's privacy stance was a farce on borrowed time to begin with. Now it's just blatantly obvious to everyone.

Please stop insulting people because they chose less privacy than you. Don't act superior. I would posit that just about everyone who reads hackernews knows that privacy and security are on a spectrum. People complaining about this as the last straw have every right to do so and this is a huge leap from Apple's previous position. No one thinks you're any smarter by saying "I told you so".

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#172

Post by AceJohnny2 »

jonplackett wrote: post #5

In their attempt to make this extra private by scanning 'on device', I think they've managed to make it feel worse. If they scan my iCloud photos in iCloud, well lots of companies scan stuff when you upload it. It's on their servers, they're responsible for it. They don't want to be hosting CSAM. It feels much worse them turning your own, trusty iPhone against you. I know that isn't how you should look at it, but tha…

Wild thought: could on-device scanning be considered a violation of the 3rd Amendment (quartering soldiers [enforcing agents of the government] in peoples homes [property]) ?

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#173

Post by slg »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #161
slg wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm not giving my photos to anyone. I am just taking photos on my phone and Apple is automatically backing them up to iCloud. I have no idea how that feature was turned on or how to turn it off." ~ most normal people. People here too often only think of these issues from the perspective of the type of person who browses HN. Apple is thinking of this from the perspective of an average iPhone users.

Or, perhaps many regular users do understand the separation, and that's why this issue is getting so much attention.

Is this issue getting much attention outside of tech circles? I have seen a few news stories here or there, but nothing major. I have not heard a word about it from any of my non-tech friends or from the non-tech people I follow on social media. Meanwhile people on HN are acting as if this is one of the biggest stories of the year with multiple posts on it every day.

There is a huge separation in the importance that the tech community puts on the general concept of privacy while the average person rarely worries about it.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#174

Post by enriquec »

twobitshifter wrote: post #80
shuckles wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USPS regularly X-rays mail, and the only protection against abuse is policy (it’s not admissible evidence in the United States).

Not only that, but they log all metadata on the envelope of every letter sent.

and my building's mail gets routinely stolen

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#175

Post by stjohnswarts »

tmdg wrote: post #56
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practical difference is that with on-device scanning, the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device, instead of just the ones that are about to be uploaded. With server-side scanning, the separation is clear—what's on Apple's server can be scanned, and what's only on your phone cannot. This all plays so perfectly into my long-time fears about the locked down nature of the iPhone…

I feel like this is a false sense of security. Even before this change, they can easily access and scan photos on your device. If they do any post-processing of the image on device, they already do.

The only way what you said is not true for any networked device is to just go down to the river and throw it in and never use a digital device again. It's not a false sense of security, it's a calculated position on security and what you will accept, moving spying from the server to the phone was the last straw for a lot of people.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#176

Post by busymom0 »

notquitehuman wrote: post #63

This was such a weird way for them to announce that they’re no longer pursuing privacy as a differentiation strategy.

What makes it even weirder is that just couple months ago, everyone was praising Apple for their whole "Privacy" ads when they announced iOS 15 with the do not track defaults.

I even think that Apple would have faced less backpack over this CSAM stuff if they hadn't used the "privacy" shtick just couple months ago.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#177

Post by N00bN00b »

nitrogen wrote: post #147
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practical difference is that with on-device scanning, the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device, instead of just the ones that are about to be uploaded. With server-side scanning, the separation is clear—what's on Apple's server can be scanned, and what's only on your phone cannot. This all plays so perfectly into my long-time fears about the locked down nature of the iPhone…

With server-side scanning, the separation is clear In all these threads everyone is coming close to the crux of the issue, but I want to restate it in clearer terms: There is a sacrosanct line between "public" and "private," "mine" and "yours." That line cannot be crossed by Western governments without a warrant. Cloud computing has deliberately blurred this line over time. This on-device scanning implementation blow…

> that betrays its user, is a self that betrays itself.

And cloud computing are corporations that take your self away from you.

And that was always going to happen. And people have been fighting that idea in the shadows for a while.

This issue is just bringing it to the foreground in a most intense way. "Think of the children."

They are coming for your self. They will take it. There's not doubt. There never was. Your self is too valuable and you've just been squandering it anyway.

Eventually you become Apple. Unless you start resisting, but that's hard. Just slooooowly warm the water. This froggy is fine. Nice and warm. Just don't touch the bottom of the pot.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#178

Post by akiselev »

busymom0 wrote: post #166
akiselev wrote: post #158

> It's a complete change of narrative and there's no easy way to explain it and still defend Apple's Privacy narrative, wihout doing extreme mental gymnastics. Everyone who took Apple at their word was already doing extreme mental gymnastics because Apple's privacy stance was a farce on borrowed time to begin with. Now it's just blatantly obvious to everyone.

While I knew that the "privacy" stance from Apple in prior years was always a marketing facade to sell more devices, I still continued to believe that they would keep sticking up for privacy as much as possible. It's kind of funny how I am very suspicious of governments and politicians but when it comes to a trillion dollar corporation, I was giving them more of benefit of doubt. I was wrong.

I don't necessarily think you were wrong to believe in Apple, perhaps just a bit naive about how little "as much as possible" is good for in this context.

Apple is a public corporation at the mercy of several superpowers. Economic incentives and the people with the guns make the rules. Full stop. Apple's privacy stance was always one desperate/amibitious business unit or bureaucrat away from complete collapse.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#179

Post by fraa-orolo »

shuckles wrote: post #69
tmdg wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a false sense of security. Even before this change, they can easily access and scan photos on your device. If they do any post-processing of the image on device, they already do.

Apple already scans your photos for faces and syncs found faces through iCloud. I’d imagine updating that machine learning model is at least as straightforward as this one.

A false positive in matching faces results in a click to fix it or a wrongly categorized photo. A false positive in this new thing may land you in jail or have your life destroyed. Even an allegation of something so heinous is enough to ruin a life.

The "one in trillion" chance of false positives is Apple's invention. They haven't scanned trillions of photos and it's a guess. And you need multiple false positives, yet no one says how many, so it could be a low number. Either way, even with how small the chance of it being wrong is, the consequences for the individual are catastrophic. No one sane should accept that kind of risk/reward ratio.

"Oh, and one more thing, and we think you'll love it. You can back up your entire camera roll for just $10 a month and a really infinitesimally minuscule chance that you and your family will be completely disgraced in the public eye, and you'll get raped and murdered in prison for nothing."

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#180

Post by jdavis703 »

FooHentai wrote: post #141
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practical difference is that with on-device scanning, the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device, instead of just the ones that are about to be uploaded. With server-side scanning, the separation is clear—what's on Apple's server can be scanned, and what's only on your phone cannot. This all plays so perfectly into my long-time fears about the locked down nature of the iPhone…

>the system is just a few bit flips away from scanning every photo on your device I prefer to think of it as being just one national security letter away from that happening. Which is of course a schroedinger's cat kinda thing. It's already been sent. Or it hasn't. But why would the national security apparatus not take advantage of this obvious opportunity? Anyone giving benefit of the doubt to this kind of stuff now…

How would the agency issuing an NSL be able to generate a hash of a photo they’re looking for? Presumably if they already had a photo to derive the hash they’d already have whatever it is they’re searching for.
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