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Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

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Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#171
post #81
post #18

Meanwhile Amazon recruiters keep spamming me to join their cult. No one *wants* to work for you anymore. You don't need to recruit. If someone is desperate enough they'll let you know.

> No one wants to work for you anymore. You're in quite the bubble. Lots of folks I know would work at Amazon. Friends have joined the computing groups (Lambda, ECS, EKS) to work on observability, scale, security. It's important work with broad impact.

I agree, I know tons of people that work for and would love to work from them, and I do not live in WA.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#172
post #31
post #13

I never understood the secretive nature of these Amazon "devplan" / "FOCUS" lists. If an employee has a performance issue, they should know. Period. If they are on a formal list, they should know that too. The only "positive" here is that it can affect the individual's moral to know you are not meeting expectations - but that has to be communicated regardless. If it's understood it has to be communicated and there is…

A toxic culture of fear is the intended effect here. People at amazon love to discuss the flywheel effect[1]. The flywheel here is the culture of fear that keeps employees on their toes. Bezos believes that employees are inherently lazy[2], and it seems like fear is tool the S-team have chosen to solve the problem of lazy employees. This has a lot of unintended consequences[3], but the executives with the power to ch…

Imagine suffering from imposter syndrome in an office with this fear culture. People will work themselves to the bone trying to fix personal perceived inadequecies. Then they burnout and quit.

I guess if workers are considered expendable than that's a positive. Corporations need to be more accountable to their workers welfare and not solely stockholder's welfare.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t the complete picture. It’s true that the vesting schedule gives you only 5% of RSUs in your first year, but employees’ cash signing bonus is increased to offset that. So if the total compensation target for a role is generally $500k (say, a principal engineer or a director, maybe?) and your salary is capped at $160k, you’d be given a signing bonus of $500k-$160k-(total stock vest x 5%) in cash. It’s not as…

I keep hearing all the letters of FAANG have more or less similarly competitive total compensation if you factor in RSUs, appreciation, etc. But then I hear things about "cliffs" and how extremely high TCs are possible only because of stock appreciation. In that sense, is Netflix basically untouchable in terms of compensation, if F/A/A/G (and other companies like Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, Microsoft, etc.) can only be compe…

To be absolutely clear, comp is not based on stock appreciation. You get your grant (aka no. of stocks/RSUs) that vest at some cadence. By the time you vest a tranche and share price has increased is an added bonus (though generally people in tech think 4x in 4 years is their birth right.)

As for Netflix, they do give you option of choosing to split your salary every year i.e all cash, all options, some cash and some options as you see fit.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about cash is that you can use it to buy equity. Who knows, maybe you’ll even learn to diversify by investing in areas uncorrelated to your line of work

It’s equivalent if the cash bonus is paid up front or at the beginning of 2020 when the employee starts. So 200k base and 300k signing bonus. I _thought_ Netflix comps with a cash salary and if that’s the case it’s worth less than equity. The salary depreciated over the course of 2020 while an equity grant would have appreciated from the start.

Read my above comment.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division.

> Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division. Pointing out that someone has it shittier is typically an excuse for shittyness.

Yes that’s why I thought it odd to say the AWS devs have it hardest in the whole company. It’s not a competition though it always feels a bit silly to pretend back breaking physical labor is easier than sitting in an air conditioned office in a chair.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#176

Are performance improvement plans actually genuine in most cases? If I were put on one or got a negative performance review, I would assume that I have essentially been fired but my boss is waiting on key paperwork.

My experience at Amazon was as soon as someone knew they were on a PIP, they went out and got another job. It's much easier to get a job when you are currently employed, and your PIP doesn't show up in any background checks so it was basically a "please leave or we will make you leave"

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, those poor AWS employees sure have it tough vs that warehouse division. Pointing out that someone has it shittier is typically an excuse for shittyness.

Yes that’s why I thought it odd to say the AWS devs have it hardest in the whole company. It’s not a competition though it always feels a bit silly to pretend back breaking physical labor is easier than sitting in an air conditioned office in a chair.

The strongest plausible interpretation is they meant for equivalent jobs.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#178
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing something about a problem generally requires someone is aware that a problem exists right? Otherwise it’s just marking them for future termination without telling them, which seems like a waste of everyone’s time.

No. The management team can make honest mistake. After preliminary investigation, they find they are wrong. No need to tell the employee in this regard. I did not say they should never tell the employee. I think sometimes it's unnecessary.

Shouldn’t that investigation happen before they are considered a performance problem and put on the list?

Giving the employee a chance to rebut any performance problem assumptions would be an important part of this, and would also require they know.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#179
post #13

I never understood the secretive nature of these Amazon "devplan" / "FOCUS" lists. If an employee has a performance issue, they should know. Period. If they are on a formal list, they should know that too. The only "positive" here is that it can affect the individual's moral to know you are not meeting expectations - but that has to be communicated regardless. If it's understood it has to be communicated and there is…

I have spent a lot of time on Blind where this is discussed often and I think I have an idea what is going on. At a high level, Amazon orgs have Unregretted Attrition (URA) targets/quotas for orgs. Not every manager needs to hit the exact target but under a certain level of middle management they do. Because of this built-in churn they need to have a pipeline of low performers - because once the current set of URA ta…

I can see how some small aspects of this policy could make sense objectively. Having a URA target + needing a pipeline to feed that at scale certainly makes sense - notwithstanding the proven misguided approach of having a URA target to begin with.

But taken as a whole I cannot help but conclude that the program is meant to instil a culture of fear (and by extension toxicity). Considering the following:

* A manager may or may not have made vague statements to indicate you are on this list. Since the manager is explicitly instructed not to talk about the list itself, it is up to the employee to triangulate from a manager's statements their standing relative to performance. This means that employees can never really be sure about their status with respect to this list and so must constantly be on their toes (especially regarding statements from their managers).

* If a person is borderline under-performing, what is the logic in preventing them from switching teams internally? Perhaps a culture change or a product change would tip the scales for them to increase performance. Maybe there is a culture clash with the org or with the direct manager. I don't see any downside in maintaining the FOCUS status but allowing the employee to explore options to improve their productivity internally.

* If a person is borderline under-performing, what is the rationale behind blacklisting them from ever becoming rehired at the company? This the most egregious offence to me regarding the entire program - that Amazon is hanging a sword of damocles over all their employees heads, implicitly threatening them with blacklisting them as one of the largest tech employers in the industry. This list, again, being entirely secretive and Amazon explicitly instructing managers not to talk about with employees.

From my understanding, you can work at Amazon several years, be on a FOCUS/devlist for a huge amount of that time - and never even know. When you leave, you are automatically marked as URA and ineligible to rejoin the company.

This all adds up to me as a program specifically designed to be vaguely threatening and fear inducing.

If we assume an ideal world where managers are all great communicators and can handle performance management with skill and would never misuse the program for any reason - I can maybe squint and suspend my disbelief enough to see how this program can effectively work.

But you would have to be breathlessly naive to assume that's how the program would practically work in the real world with actual managers (and the state of middle/upper management in tech companies at large).

Any management/leadership team who is OK with rolling such a program out at scale given the above is not a team I would want to work with in any capacity, and IMO it just speaks to the dehumanizing nature of the culture they are aiming to create. It is inconceivable that upper management at Amazon doesn't realize these effects of the program.

Like you say, they have probably thought about it deeply, and just don't care. The metrics are working for them, so it continues. I personally am not going to lose sleep over it, I will simply refuse to work there. I hope employees who do work there know that there are other technology companies who actually consider these negative effects on their own employees and actually have empathy towards creating a place where people genuinely want to work - because for other companies, the equation regarding optimizing business metrics lands a bit differently when it comes to their own employees. If you can pass the bar at Amazon you can pass the bar at other places. Don't sell yourself short thinking this is normal or OK.

Re: Amazon tells bosses to conceal when employees are on performance management plan

#180
post #146
post #18

Meanwhile Amazon recruiters keep spamming me to join their cult. No one *wants* to work for you anymore. You don't need to recruit. If someone is desperate enough they'll let you know.

It's amazing because I've told multiple Amazon recruiters "I don't want to work at Amazon, please make a note so that other Amazon recruiters don't contact me" and it never works. They have a central secret list of employees not to rehire, but when it comes to sourcing they can't get their shit together.

Accept a job, and get paid to be fired and never reached out to again?
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