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MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#171

Post by dragonwriter »

Spivak wrote: post #158
dragonwriter wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I scored extremely well on the SAT/ACT so I would have every incentive to keep the status quo. I did too (well, the SAT; given that and that evrywhere I wanted to apply took the SAT, the ACT would have been superfluous), but... > Being smart does help you on these tests but not as much as you would hope. Its pretty much all being smart. Focussed study has some effect (and because small score differences at the high…

> Focussed study has some effect This statement requires some elaboration. Cramming for the SAT/ACT in the short time before the test has a small effect on your overall score. But if you go to a preparatory middle and high school where you will essentially spend 6-12th grade studying for the tests because the school designed the curriculum specifically to prepare you for them you will see a big difference. Over the f…

> Over the four years I spent in high school I was assigned as homework every. single. AP Calc I & II problem that had ever been published. Is it really that surprising that our class did well?

AP tests are different than the SAT/ACT. AP tests measure knowledge of something (the degree to which one can study the test independently of the notional subject matter may be debatable, sure), but SAT/ACT are very much proxy IQ tests. They may frequently be used together (but MIT is dropping SAT/ACT, not AP), but are not equivalent to each other.

> If you read voraciously as a child you will score extremely well on the reading section without really trying. You aren't smarter.

There is considerable, though as in most things intelligence-related, not conclusive, evidence that reading, especially early reading, does improve general intelligence.

> I read math textbooks for fun. I was doing college-level math in 9th grade. And surprise to no one I scored almost perfect on the math section. But crucially, this didn't make me smarter than my peers.

How do you know that you didn’t both do this in part because you were already smarter than your peers, and that doing it didn’t make you even smarter than you would otherwise have been?

> Literally anyone who had decided to spend their time at recess reading number theory textbooks would have done just as well.

Even if that was provably true, that doesn’t mean doing it didn’t make you smarter, since if it did it would presumably also have that effect on others who did it.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#172

Post by rudderz »

philipkglass wrote: post #157
rudderz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

Lab based courses are crucial to the natural sciences. Even an institution as well off as MIT can't afford to buy enough NMR spectrometers for everyone to take their chemistry classes. Simulations and videos are not adequate substitutes for real lab work.

> Simulations and videos are not adequate substitutes for real lab work.

citations needed

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#173

Post by thaumasiotes »

sudosysgen wrote: post #163
thaumasiotes wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely untrue.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10212-011-0099-9 Personality traits are much more strongly correlated with academic aptitude than IQ is. If you disagree, you should provide a source.

What are you trying to illustrate with your link? There is no standardized national exam among the measures.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#174

Post by Ekaros »

rudderz wrote: post #58
porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

If we could find proper way to do testing and administer unlimited class sizes, one option could be just allow everyone in first year remote with some lower tuition rate. And then just drop all of the students who do not do good enough to get inside quota of spots for further years.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#175

Post by ghaff »

option wrote: post #85
currymj wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to show intellectual merit using the SAT, because the test isn't hard enough so people just max out the score. the 25th percentile student at MIT got 790/800 for the math section. it definitely does make a difference for bright students who do unexpectedly well -- but it gets them into "merely" good schools not ultra-selective institutions like MIT.

sounds like the test is a good “necessary” (not sufficient) condition for admission

Absolutely. MIT wants to admit a varied population of students who are probably smart enough to do well if they apply themselves. They don't really need a harder standardized test. (There are also whatever the Achievement Tests are called these days.)

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#176

Post by Robotbeat »

chris11 wrote: post #107
ghaff wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore... This was years ago but there's no particular reason I'd expect things to have changed. But basically if you looked at outcomes--I think this included post-uni outcomes like salary--the quantitative measures like SAT score had a lot more predictive value than interview/letters of recommendation/essays/etc. (The way the one school I'm familiar with used to do things was that basically everyone went on an…

> the quantitative measures like SAT score had a lot more predictive value than interview/letters of recommendation/essays/etc. I've also read SAT scores are highly correlated to family income. Family income probably has a huge impact on post university outcomes.

I would imagine the socialization benefits of family income probably massively enhance interview skill and (even more) letters of recommendation as well, no? And for the essay, this seems easiest to fix with wealth as you can hire someone to either write it for you or massively edit it and assist you with it.

Any time someone proposes to get rid of this or that requirement for being correlated to wealth, I'd like to see what the alternative is and see if it's any better.

We want something somewhat meritocratic, where we can tell the difference between natural capability and hard work on the one hand and simply being lucky to be born into wealth on the other... but it's not clear to me that objective measures like the SAT are going to be worse than interviews/letters-of-rec/essays in discerning that.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#177

Post by underpand »

tzs wrote: post #156
Google234 wrote: post #6

This will definitely help make it easier for admissions to discriminate against Asian students.

MIT undergraduates in the class of 2024 are 42% Asian. White is 39%. What makes you think MIT discriminates against Asian students?

It's low compared to some base rates.

60% of 750 - 800 math SAT scorers are Asian

https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/...

I looked through the list of USAMO finalists in recent years and > 80% have Asian surnames.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#178

Post by austincheney »

option wrote: post #91
austincheney wrote: post #23

So many university recruiters at that level just suggest a minimum application criteria after which a lottery is applied to select acceptable applicants. A truly randomized lottery would ensure no bias in student selection. If you have, let’s say, 3000 open positions and 15,000 applications of which all are academically qualified does it really matter who they pick for admission? It’s not like there is going to be an…

people go to great universities because of the environment and friends and peers they will network with. Great lectures from top professors can be found online for almost free these days. Making admissions non-competitive will ruin top schools.

> Making admissions non-competitive will ruin top schools.

I never suggested that.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#179

Post by sudosysgen »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #173
sudosysgen wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10212-011-0099-9 Personality traits are much more strongly correlated with academic aptitude than IQ is. If you disagree, you should provide a source.

What are you trying to illustrate with your link? There is no standardized national exam among the measures.

Standardized national exams are normally very highly correlated to academic ability as represented by grades by the same teacher. Actually, where I live, this is essentially the explicit goal of the national exams - they then generate a score that normalizes the difficulty of each teacher and use it both for selection and to evaluate the accuracy of the exam and update it next year.

The data from which I learnt this isn't public AFAIK, but I'm sure similar studies exist for other countries.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#180

Post by sudosysgen »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #164
sudosysgen wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes? And? General grades still correlate more strongly with consciensciousness than IQ. And consciensciousness is actually negatively correlated with IQ.

Grades show a strong influence from conscientiousness, but exam scores do not. > And consciensciousness is actually negatively correlated with IQ. In the same way that SAT math scores are negatively correlated with SAT verbal scores, which is to say only in thresholded samples. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.paid.2014.06.014

Which exam scores are we talking about? Grades themselves are generally by preponderance the result of exams.

In non-thresholded samples there is still a small negative correlation, or no correlation at all. If you could show me a study thay shows big, positive correlations between intelligence and consciensciousness without thresholding I'd be interested.

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