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MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#41

Post by noch »

whack wrote: post #21

On the one hand, it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test. On the other hand, it is ridiculous that we don't have a single commonly used standardized-exam that evaluates proficiency and expertise in the core curriculum. I know America has a serious NIH syndrome, but the situation could be improved overnight if every single public school adopted the GCSE/A levels or IB cu…

> […]it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test.

SATs are a good measure of General Intelligence (and IQ).

“ This research established the relationship between SAT and g, as well as the appropriateness of the SAT as a measure of g, and examined the SAT as a premorbid measure of intelligence. In Study 1, we used the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1979. Measures of g were extracted from the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery and correlated with SAT scores of 917 participants. The resulting correlation was .82 (.86 corrected for nonlinearity). Study 2 investigated the correlation between revised and recentered SAT scores and scores on the Raven's Advanced Progressive Matrices among 104 undergraduates. The resulting correlation was .483 (.72 corrected for restricted range). These studies indicate that the SAT is mainly a test of g. "

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0956-7976.200...

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#42

Post by paconbork »

pmiller2 wrote: post #31
porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

Yes, and high-quality free prep solutions exist: https://www.khanacademy.org/SAT

Spending 10k on a prep class isn't going to cause your dimwitted child to outperform a bright kid from a disadvantaged background, but it can probably buy a better essay

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#43

Post by vsef »

chrisseaton wrote: post #30
__palo_alto__ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. Even for ones that do, there's no standardized high school graduation exam nationwide.

> Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. So how do people fail to graduate high-school?

In the US system you pass/fail each class based on exams and coursework and there is a minimum set of classes required to pass to graduate. The pass/fail is at the class level, there is no separate set of final overall exams as in other systems.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#44

Post by thaumasiotes »

sudosysgen wrote: post #38
thaumasiotes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the one hand, it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test. On the other hand, it is ridiculous that we don't have a single commonly used standardized-exam that evaluates proficiency and expertise in the core curriculum. You don't like the use of an IQ test in school admissions, and you want to establish an IQ test instead?

Standardized national exams on proficiency in math, languages, science, etc... are very different from IQ tests and only somewhat correlated with IQ, being instead much more strongly correlated with consciensciousness, and generally how good of a student you are and will be.

This is completely untrue.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#45

Post by ffggvv »

pmiller2 wrote: post #31
porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

you know they also pay people to write their essays or give them tutoring to get a high GPA right? And that GPA's are inflated at private schools?

The SAT is the one mechanism that poor asian and jewish and nigerian kids could prepare for and do well on. But obviously the objective is to get rid of them as "theres too many"

Its also the only measure thats the same for everyone. There also isnt any indication that as a whole the test prep classes actually "work" to a serious degree. Maybe theyll take your score up 20 points but wont raise it 300.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#46

Post by fireflies_ »

pmiller2 wrote: post #31
porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

You're being downvoted, but I think this sentiment is right and if you take it seriously, it's an argument for the SAT. Pretty much _everything_ in the USA is pay to win, not just the SAT, and the more subjective factors like essays, extracurriculars, and even grades, are more biased.

Test prep companies have an incentive to overhype their services but research suggests the improvement isn't that much.

There's a Jacobin article making the case for the SAT that people following this debate might enjoy reading: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/03/sat-class-race-inequality...

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#47

Post by mattnewton »

chrisseaton wrote: post #30
__palo_alto__ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. Even for ones that do, there's no standardized high school graduation exam nationwide.

> Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. So how do people fail to graduate high-school?

They fail to complete a minimum number of classes with passing grades.

If the bar sounds low and subjective, that’s because it often is, and as such I think it’s mostly useless for colleges looking to measure students against each other to choose who to admit.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#48

Post by ghaff »

porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

Furthermore...

This was years ago but there's no particular reason I'd expect things to have changed. But basically if you looked at outcomes--I think this included post-uni outcomes like salary--the quantitative measures like SAT score had a lot more predictive value than interview/letters of recommendation/essays/etc.

(The way the one school I'm familiar with used to do things was that basically everyone went on an X-Y graph with X being a normalized quant score and the Y being a normalized everything else score. Everyone up and to the right. No one down and to the left did. Those in the middle band were looked at a bit more carefully.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#49

Post by totalZero »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #29
whack wrote: post #21

On the one hand, it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test. On the other hand, it is ridiculous that we don't have a single commonly used standardized-exam that evaluates proficiency and expertise in the core curriculum. I know America has a serious NIH syndrome, but the situation could be improved overnight if every single public school adopted the GCSE/A levels or IB cu…

> On the one hand, it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test. On the other hand, it is ridiculous that we don't have a single commonly used standardized-exam that evaluates proficiency and expertise in the core curriculum. You don't like the use of an IQ test in school admissions, and you want to establish an IQ test instead?

I agree with your implicit point, but GP is likely emphasizing the delineation between measuring aptitude and measuring proficiency.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#50

Post by ericd »

pmiller2 wrote: post #31
porb121 wrote: post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

This is an oft-repeated meme, but I don't think it holds much water - the main value of SAT test prep is in taking a few practice tests, which you can do by yourself with a $20 book. You can't buy your way to a 2400, it takes being able to actually solve the problems. Otherwise, you'd see a lot more of them.
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