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Advice From An Old Programmer

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Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#171

Post by onan_barbarian »

zedshaw wrote: post #160
onan_barbarian wrote: post #125

My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring, and a lot of the stuff he says might be true for Zed, it sure as hell isn't true for the rest of us: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint." If this is actual…

> My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring I didn't say programming was boring, I said the profession was boring. It's a good thing I didn't write the book for you, since you seem to be unable to read.

From your article: "I have been programming for a very long time. So long that it is incredibly boring to me."

So, to continue rhapsodizing to each other about our inabilities, you're apparently unable to read _your_ _own_ _writing_. You may be remembering this sentence instead, which you also wrote: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting."

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#172

Post by zedshaw »

onan_barbarian wrote: post #171
zedshaw wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring I didn't say programming was boring, I said the profession was boring. It's a good thing I didn't write the book for you, since you seem to be unable to read.

From your article: "I have been programming for a very long time. So long that it is incredibly boring to me." So, to continue rhapsodizing to each other about our inabilities, you're apparently unable to read _your_ _own_ _writing_. You may be remembering this sentence instead, which you also wrote: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting."

No, I'm referring to what you quoted:

> Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting.

Direct quote you pulled from my book and then commented on. The quote you just referenced is just what I think as my personal opinion, not a statement of fact.

So yes, you can't read, especially when you quote the material.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#173

Post by zedshaw »

Johngibb wrote: post #165
onan_barbarian wrote: post #125

My guess is that I've been coding for longer than Zed, and I don't remember _ever_ thinking it was boring, and a lot of the stuff he says might be true for Zed, it sure as hell isn't true for the rest of us: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint." If this is actual…

I definitely got a different, more inspiring read out of this post. I'd sum it up as "programming for the point of programming will eventually reach a local maximum of enjoyment; focus instead on the creative potential and possible reach of the art programming has enabled you to create." In other words, "make something people want", and from that you will really receive fulfillment. The true, lasting satisfaction tha…

You'll find that this part of the book gets interpreted by different people in different ways. Some folks, usually those who've invested their life in only programming, take it offensively and assume I'm insulting them. Others who are beginners or maybe having a hard time with programming find it inspiring. Still others just find it weird.

To each their own.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#174

Post by Johngibb »

georgieporgie wrote: post #39
a3camero wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effecting = Doing Affecting = Being done to You effect change and change affects you. Something was done to your decisions so the right word is "affected".

There are a lot of non-native-English HN participants, and I think this sort of language pedantry 1) accomplishes nothing, as OP will likely still use the wrong word, and 2) discourages those who lack confidence in their language skills from posting what may be very insightful comments.

I disagree. There was no condescending tone, and it seemed like a genuine attempt at helping someone learn the difference between affect and effect. I would label this helpful, not pedantic.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#175

Post by riffraff »

StavrosK wrote: post #84
keiferski wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word art , in the past, was used in the same way that we, today, use craft . So, it's not quite that simple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art But let's avoid an argument on the semantics of aesthetics and just leave it at that.

And it still is (X is practising his art).

Or the commonly misunderstood 'state of the art' which appears to mean 'amazing' but actually means 'current best practice in this craft'.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#176

Post by Johngibb »

m_myers wrote: post #38
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas, "effect" is also a transitive verb: you can effect change, i.e. cause it to occur.

And "affect" is also a noun, although rarely used. affect: the conscious subjective aspect of an emotion considered apart from bodily changes; also : a set of observable manifestations of a subjectively experienced emotion ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affect ) But it's still a good rule of thumb.

At least this usage of affect carries a different pronunciation. The emphasis is on the first syllable here, rather than the second, making it SOUND like a different word than effect.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#177

Post by Johngibb »

I have to admit, I came into this discussion in support of the chapter and the author (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2664502 for example), but after reading Zed's replies I'm turned off by his elitist replies, such as on multiple occasions telling people that they "can't read".

Clearly there's a lot of support (443 votes and counting), but resorting to this sort of insulting just doesn't lend anything to the conversation. And I think it's a worthwhile conversation to be had.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#178

Post by onan_barbarian »

zedshaw wrote: post #172
onan_barbarian wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your article: "I have been programming for a very long time. So long that it is incredibly boring to me." So, to continue rhapsodizing to each other about our inabilities, you're apparently unable to read _your_ _own_ _writing_. You may be remembering this sentence instead, which you also wrote: "Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting."

No, I'm referring to what you quoted: > Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. Direct quote you pulled from my book and then commented on. The quote you just referenced is just what I think as my personal opinion, not a statement of fact. So yes, you can't read, especially when you quote the material.

Sigh. You appear to be in a selective parsing frenzy. Have fun with that.

You attempting to draw Big Important Distinctions between the bits of that particular passage that are 'personal opinion' and 'statement of fact' is at least entertaining, given that the whole piece is _all_ pure opinion.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#179

Post by little_droog »

onan_barbarian wrote: post #178
zedshaw wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm referring to what you quoted: > Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. Direct quote you pulled from my book and then commented on. The quote you just referenced is just what I think as my personal opinion, not a statement of fact. So yes, you can't read, especially when you quote the material.

Sigh. You appear to be in a selective parsing frenzy. Have fun with that. You attempting to draw Big Important Distinctions between the bits of that particular passage that are 'personal opinion' and 'statement of fact' is at least entertaining, given that the whole piece is _all_ pure opinion.

Can you two just get a room?

I think this subthread is providing a fine counterexample to the idea that hiding comment scores magically improves the quality of discussion on HN.

Re: Advice From An Old Programmer

#180

Post by singular »

zedshaw wrote: post #161
singular wrote: post #117

Though there is some wisdom in what Zed says here, I am getting quite tired of the 'actually, programming itself (especially as a job) is boring' meme, as if saying that marks you out as some sort of world-weary but insightful practitioner of the arts who has somehow risen above the mere trivial and seen it for the dull plod it really is. Please stop telling me what I think + feel about my craft - you feel that way,…

If you read what I actually wrote, instead of what you wanted to hear, you'd see that I said the profession is boring. Why would I write a book teaching people programming if I thought it was boring? Coding is awesome fun and my favorite thing, but damn the job is really super boring.

With all due respect, I did read TFA -

"I have been programming for a very long time. So long that it is incredibly boring to me."

But you do of course later say:

"This doesn't mean I think programming is boring, or that you will think it's boring, only that I find it uninteresting at this point in my journey."

And, of course:-

"Programming as a profession is only moderately interesting. It can be a good job, but if you want to make about the same money and be happier, you could actually just go run a fast food joint."

To me that all seems a little contradictory, but ultimately seems to say to me 'actually, after all these years I've seen through all the naive bullshit and realised that it is, in fact, rather boring'.

There are obviously crap and boring aspects to any activity, but how on earth can you say the act of doing something is interesting, but the profession itself is not? Do you mean to say that everything in the profession other than the programming is boring? Well I'd disagree with that too, though less emphatically.

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