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Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#171

Post by dkarl »

terio wrote: post #161
dkarl wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intake is the key point in the entire argument for me. The dose makes the poison, and at this point we're arguing over whether it is healthier to poison ourselves with excessive calories from fat or excessive calories from carbs. If you don't eat too much, you don't have a stake in the argument at all.

Not really. It depends on each person's metabolism. I know people that get fat just by having regular desserts for a few days, and others (generally very young) that can eat anything until they burst without moving the needle.

In general, you can't trust self-reported data, especially not data reported to social acquaintances. Not only do people underreport how much they eat (it's the norm, even for people who aren't overweight), they don't do a good job of measuring their weight and reporting weight loss or weight gain. People really do say and believe that they've gained five pounds in two days, or lost ten pounds in a week, when it's clear they are just measuring fluctuations that have nothing to do with muscle or body fat.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#172

Post by jpk »

sambeau wrote: post #167
terio wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It depends on each person's metabolism. I know people that get fat just by having regular desserts for a few days, and others (generally very young) that can eat anything until they burst without moving the needle.

There is no such thing as 'metabolism': just body mass, muscle mass and activity. Big people burn more calories even when still. Active people burn more than still people of the same size. Muscular people burn more calories than the non-muscular as they have to feed their bigger muscles. In sealed room tests fat people use more calories than thin people. Skinny people who can eat anything they want without putting on…

"Skinny people who can eat anything they want without putting on weight tend to be very fidgety - they never keep totally still. Just wiggling a leg all day can use a large amount of energy."

Hm, this is interesting. I've never heard that before, but it seems intuitive. Do you have any sources for that idea? (Not that I'm challenging, just curious.)

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#173

Post by endtime »

o_nate wrote: post #146
endtime wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ancient life expectancy numbers are misleading because of very high infant mortality. And even if that weren't the case, your reasoning is faulty. I have more or less the same gut as a caveman, so it makes sense to eat what they were optimized for. The fact that we have surgery and antibiotics and aren't at significant risk of being eaten by saber-toothed tigers isn't relevant to diet.

The human digestive system evolved over millions of years, and there is not much that is known with certainty about the human diet over that span of time - however, it is known that humans have a better ability to process starchy foods than other primates. So the assumption that a 'paleo' diet wouldn't include lots of starch is not based on science. Take a look at this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6983330.stm

If you read my comment a little more carefully, you'd know I'm not anti-starch. I avoid anti-nutritious and harmful grains like wheat, but I eat potatoes with zeal.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#174

Post by ajslater »

sambeau wrote: post #167
terio wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It depends on each person's metabolism. I know people that get fat just by having regular desserts for a few days, and others (generally very young) that can eat anything until they burst without moving the needle.

There is no such thing as 'metabolism': just body mass, muscle mass and activity. Big people burn more calories even when still. Active people burn more than still people of the same size. Muscular people burn more calories than the non-muscular as they have to feed their bigger muscles. In sealed room tests fat people use more calories than thin people. Skinny people who can eat anything they want without putting on…

In the literature its referred to as N.E.A.T. Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis

Many people's body's response to overfeeding is to up NEAT, up fidgetyness. But not always. Your body thinks getting fat is a good thing. Famine used to be common. When dieting almost everyone down-regulates NEAT. On a severe diet you feel like being very still.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#175

Post by ajscherer »

jdminhbg wrote: post #165
ajscherer wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The surprise is genuine, and I didn't include any anecdotes in my post. The research I have seen indicates that high carbohydrate intake (particularly sugars) is more likely to make someone obese than high fat intake. The research I have seen in no way indicates that the reason people select high sugar foods is because those foods are believed to be healthy by virtue of their low fat content. No doubt companies use "…

"I think this idea that the dietary advice of 20-30 years ago (low fat) is the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the result of a desire for a dramatically satisfying narrative." Again, you're arguing against a claim that isn't being made. The anti-carb claim is that the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the vast consumption of sugars and other simple, processed carbohydrates. A contributing factor to th…

"You can complain all you want about food manufacturers making tasty/addictive foods which are bad for you, but they were responding to the public's demand for "low fat" driven by bad science."

I am arguing that they were responding to the public's demand for cheap, tasty, convenient food driven by... people liking cheap, tasty, convenient things. The "bad science" didn't do much harm because the science didn't have much influence over what people ate anyway.

Given what I've quoted you saying above, and the fact that you don't have to scroll down very far to hear the suggestion of lowering one's fat intake called "the greatest scientific fuck up of all time", I don't think I'm arguing against a claim that isn't being made.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#176

Post by GregBuchholz »

david_p wrote: post #97
ajscherer wrote: post #79

I'm always surprised at the theories people are willing to believe about obesity, particularly people on hn. It really sounds reasonable to so many of you that the cause of the obesity epidemic is people actually listening to nutrition advice from the medical establishment and following the food pyramid? My view of what has happened is this: technologies and ingredients were invented by food manufacturers over the pa…

While I have to agree with you, your theory fails to explain why people in Europe (who have the same access to calorie dense and convenient food) are less obese (in proportion) than North Americans. I believe that culinary customs AND some additives used in industrial food play an important role. Just check out High Fructose Corn Syrup : this is in very product in the USA and is (almost) never used in Europe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/mar/16/europeanunion....

"The International Obesity Task Force estimated that Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Malta have exceeded the United States figure of 67% for overweight or obese males."

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#177

Post by GregBuchholz »

potatolicious wrote: post #120
adw wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your portions are bigger. (Seriously.)

This is the absolute core of the problem. I'm a Canadian currently living in the US; our two countries are culturally very similar, and diet-wise practically identical (save poutine, sweet sweet poutine). But the obesity epidemic hasn't swept Canada nearly the same way it is commonly seen in the US. I just got back from a trip to Canada, and I can say with absolute confidence that the typical restaurant dish in the U…

See: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/c-g/adults-adu...

From: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-620-m/2005001/article/adults...

"The racial make-up of the two countries might explain some of the differences, as research has shown that obesity rates vary by ethnic origin. Nonetheless, when obesity rates of White Americans and Canadians are compared, White women in the United States were significantly more likely than those in Canada to be obese: 30.3% versus 24.8%. However, the percentages of White American and Canadian men who were obese did not differ."

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#178

Post by mannicken »

Over-consumption of everything is bad. Cake is great, cake is fun, but if you eat it everyday you'll probably get fat because it has a lot of calories. And hey, a lot of calories isn't bad, it's just if you eat more calories than burn you'll gain fat. And that's OK, until you start to get so fat that it decreases your quality of life. Body like a loosely tied ballon, if push air into it -- it'll get big, but on itself it'll lose weight.

On another topic, I'm usually pro-legalization of every drug that's out there. But there's a lot of people out there who just put random shit into their bodies in unreasonable quantities without understanding of what they are doing, making stupid excuses. AND IT'S JUST FUCKING FOOD. If heroin or coke become legal, we'll probably see a lot of people overdose. Which I'm fine with, technically. I just now start to understand why some drugs are illegal.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#179

Post by yummyfajitas »

gojomo wrote: post #156
yummyfajitas wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we increased carb consumption far above the levels of today (from 43% of our diet to, I dunno, 54%)? Would we be even fatter than we are now? https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnpp.usd... History tells us the answer. In the early part of the 20'th century, we ate nothing but carbs. We weren't fat.

Were the early-20th-century carbs the same carbs as today? (Corn and potatoes aren't the same as sugar-cane and HFCS.)

You might try reading the report I linked to.

The big difference is that we eat more calories, less carbs, more fat and more sugar.

Re: Why do people resist the idea that carbs are worse than fat?

#180

Post by anthonyb »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #179
gojomo wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were the early-20th-century carbs the same carbs as today? (Corn and potatoes aren't the same as sugar-cane and HFCS.)

You might try reading the report I linked to. The big difference is that we eat more calories, less carbs, more fat and more sugar.

Your report just has "Carbs" - nothing to do with what sort they were. That could be flour, sugar, or potatoes, and they stay relatively constant, there's no decline (p18).

There's a big increase in the amount of fat consumed, but I suspect a large part of the difference is going to be lifestyle, too. Around the turn of the century people walked a lot more and did a lot more manual labour.

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