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Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

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Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#171

Post by throwaway894345 »

chungus_khan wrote: post #166
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the complaint is that the goalposts have moved when they should have expanded (isn't creating a broader range of what's acceptable the point of "diversity" and similar goals?). In those days you couldn't have (on your professionally produced, mainstream, mass market TV show) a woman who didn't want to be a housewife as a main character on your show unless that was portrayed negatively or being used for c…

> These days you can't have a woman who wants to be a housewife on your show unless that's being portrayed negatively or being poked fun at. Is that really true though? If you mean that you can't have a houswife as a character on your show that very obviously isn't true. If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story…

Housewife characters are uncommon, and they tend to be portrayed as vapid, boring, incompetent or else otherwise their occupation is the butt of the joke (e.g., “Claire” in Modern Family who is as intelligent as any of the characters but is a low key alcoholic and eventually breaks free of her housewife occupation to become an executive at her father’s company).

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#172

Post by himinlomax »

throwanem wrote: post #71
rosmax_1337 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about letting storywriting itself be the most important thing for games in fictional or pseudofictional settings. Adding racial quotas or gender quotas does not improve the writing of the story (or gameplay for that matter) automatically at all.

Bold of you to imply that quality of story is something AAA game companies ever care about, like, at all.

CD Projekt Red does. Old Bioware did. Rockstar. Obsidian.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#173

Post by KTallguy »

chungus_khan wrote: post #166
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the complaint is that the goalposts have moved when they should have expanded (isn't creating a broader range of what's acceptable the point of "diversity" and similar goals?). In those days you couldn't have (on your professionally produced, mainstream, mass market TV show) a woman who didn't want to be a housewife as a main character on your show unless that was portrayed negatively or being used for c…

> These days you can't have a woman who wants to be a housewife on your show unless that's being portrayed negatively or being poked fun at. Is that really true though? If you mean that you can't have a houswife as a character on your show that very obviously isn't true. If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story…

> If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story would be. Becoming a housewife isn't really an aspirational achievement in the way having a prestigious career is, and I don't think it's a story many are really interested in, nor one that would be easy to tell in a manner that doesn't seem forced.

This is not a true statement for many folks out there, and there are plenty of people who can relate to stories of being in the home. I think the best answer is broadening the things that are acceptable to aspire to, not opening one door while simultaneously locking another.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#174

Post by throwaway894345 »

julianmarq wrote: post #170
throwaway894345 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea was that the team had Christians and they were okay with the depiction (or perhaps didn’t feel safe objecting), not that the decision was expressly made by non-Christians.

Again, that doesn't justify it, in fact, if your interpretation is correct, it no longer even explains it. The implication still remains that "hey, we're insulting your religion, but there are people of multiple backgrounds here so it should be okay"... which really doesn't follow at all. And I didn't say that the decision was expressly made by non-christians.

I agree that it doesn’t justify it, but to be quite clear, the argument isn’t that there are many backgrounds represented but specifically that some of those backgrounds are Christian and they were presumably okay with it. Again, this is terrible logic because one or two Christians don’t speak for the lot.

> And I didn't say that the decision was expressly made by non-christians.

I don’t know what else you could’ve meant by “the decision was made by someone of a different background” (paraphrased because copy/paste on HN mobile is tedious).

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#175

Post by himinlomax »

JeremyNT wrote: post #120
himinlomax wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is a fine argument as long as your game actually is historically accurate See, that makes some sense if you're doing high fantasy and shit that's set in a wholly fictional world. But just because some parts of a game are not realistic does not mean you should just forget about even trying. It makes no sense. > If your samurai game includes werewolves and machine guns you don't get to turn around say you didn't…

You realize that the premise of this series is that, in a distopian near future, scientists unlock the ability for people to access their genetic memories and inhabit the bodies of their ancestors, who were guided by alien forces and augmented with powerful technological relics. The AC series really never asks you to take it very seriously. To the extent that actual history is present, it's almost like fan service.

Yeah so in that universe it's technically possible / lore-able to have Africans in medieval England. It's also technically possible to have neanderthals by the same account yet we don't see any. The problem is, it's not motivated by any story element, only by diversity compliance checkbox-ticking which is definitely not in-universe.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#176

Post by himinlomax »

benrbray wrote: post #151
forest_dweller wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are loads of games with characters from every corner of the planet as playable characters. Why do people always pretend they don't exist? Just having a cursory look over my collection on steam: * Streets of Rage had black, white, asian, men and women. * Street Fighter had every nationality on earth represented. * Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. Almost all the characters were black. * Grand Theft Auto V - One of…

> It only seems to be rich white people in the US seem to care about it I do think there is a kernel of truth to what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to dismiss entirely the fact that representation IS important. Historically, "rich white people" have been in control of the media, so it's great to see this group becoming more self aware. Sure, from time to time there is some overcorrection, but eventually…

I certainly don't mind LGBT characters, but the itemized tokenism present in such franchises as Star Trek: Discovery is so blatant it's ridiculous. One bi-racial homosexual couple, check. One overweight female scientist, check. One non-binary, check. One African American lead, check. One Asian captain, check. Ok I think we're good for now, we'll revisit the list when they add more letters to LGBTQIA.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#177

Post by charlesu »

criley2 wrote: post #90
mam2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity. Same, and as unpopular it may be, i firmly believe it's kind of better to not care. Because the opposite is precisely what happens here, which is caring only about a specific set of 'aspects' that are currently fashionable in the society, while failing to cover for the large majority of inequalities that are not "visible". It's…

>> I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity. >Same, and as unpopular it may be, i firmly believe it's kind of better to not care. As a white dude, I've found that "not caring about it" means "only white male characters are allowed" I've noticed that folks who "don't care about it" actually care A LARGE AMOUNT, A VERY VERY LARGE AMOUNT, when a non-male or non-white protago…

Not sure why you’re being downvoted because you have a point. Remember the controversy that ensued when a black girl was cast as Rue in the Hunger Games movie?

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/white-until-prov...

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#178

Post by Kaze404 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #158
Kaze404 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally don't think it means less, it just leads to different conclusions. While I still see class as the predominant factor, I still believe everyone would benefit from seeing "different" people in more spaces, regardless of class. For example, a rich black man still has things to add that a white man doesn't, for example, simply because of how being black influenced their own experiences which in turn mold the…

So someone black is just different enough to admitted to these spaces, but someone poor isn't? Economic apartheid isn't just endemic in the US, it's a core value and seen as a positive thing. And gender/race identity politics are not a serious threat to it. Because it means corporations can carry on being corporations as long as they have a couple of privileged middle class women in the boardroom. It's an improvement…

> So someone black is just different enough to admitted to these spaces, but someone poor isn't?

Yes they are. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was arguing against that, but to be clear I'm advocating for "identity politics" complimenting the class struggle, not the two being mutually exclusive.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#179

Post by chungus_khan »

KTallguy wrote: post #173
chungus_khan wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These days you can't have a woman who wants to be a housewife on your show unless that's being portrayed negatively or being poked fun at. Is that really true though? If you mean that you can't have a houswife as a character on your show that very obviously isn't true. If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story…

> If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story would be. Becoming a housewife isn't really an aspirational achievement in the way having a prestigious career is, and I don't think it's a story many are really interested in, nor one that would be easy to tell in a manner that doesn't seem forced. This is not a true s…

Lots of people relate to stories about domesticity, and about being a housewife, but the actual process of becoming one fundamentally doesn't centre aspiring to be one. The work one puts into becoming a housewife isn't about working to become a housewife, it's about finding a spouse. There is a massive amount of media depicting romance, including domestic fantasies, it just isn't targeted at the same audience as many here fall under. A lot of these stories even involve said person not knowing what they want to become and choosing a domestic life out of passion for the romantic interest.

Re: Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications

#180

Post by charlesu »

himinlomax wrote: post #21
MatekCopatek wrote: post #11

Lovely article. The conflict between making a videogame (or any bit of popculture really) enjoyable and inclusive vs. historically accurate often comes up and both sides have a fair point. My personal solution is to both enjoy the content and then try to educate myself through articles like this one.

Why do they need to be inclusive? Do samurai games need to include red-haired Celts and curly-haired Bantus, you know, for diversity? What's the point of this? Lying about history to make some people feel better?

To be fair, a video game could include a curly haired Bantu and be historically accurate. One of Nobunaga's retainers was an African.
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