Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

So you've made a mistake and it's public

meta.wikimedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 403 posts

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#171

Post by aequitas »

tsimionescu wrote: post #138
aequitas wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me think, it is opposite to what mostly is used in open source projects that have bugtrackers. Github is filled with countless 'mistakes' (issues/pr's) people made in the code they published. Should there be some kind of way to make issues private? Before I was into open source I was always afraid to show my code to anyone because of the critique I could expect. But some coworkers helped me get the confide…

Bugs are not critiques. Working in software development, you learn extremely quickly that everyone writes bugs, and there is nothing to be embarrassed about. The openness of issue trackers even helps elevate that. On the other hand, it's not normal and not often practiced to go digging to see whose mistake introduced a bug and call them out in public on it - that would be what shouldn't be done at all.

> Bugs are not critiques.

Not only (technical) bugs are reported, but also design decisions and such. A lot of those things often come down to difference in opinion. I've seen some developers be really adamant about how a bug was actually a feature.

> The openness of issue trackers even helps elevate that.

I agree partly. For me it helped see things different and make a positive growth. But I can image some staying afraid to enter or be deterred really quick never coming back.

>> This follows the "praise in public, punish in private" maxim.

So like the previous poster said. I am wondering if Github et al. should not contain a private channel.

I have a email on my Github page. And besides spammers I sometimes get questions regarding my projects. I don't know if it is due to people not understanding Github that well[0] or wanting to contact privately[1]. But for some reason they didn't open a public issue[2].

[0] I've met a lot of technical people that just are afraid of Github because it is complex. Electrical engineers, mechanics, embedded engineers. People I figure would understand software development concepts.

[1] Asking a stupid question publicly could also count toward making a public mistake depending on how secure someone feels about themselves.

[2] There is of course also the discussion if issues should be your projects helpdesk next to being an bug tracker. And raising an 'issue' for something that might just be a question might feel strange for some.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#172

Post by DoreenMichele »

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could.

And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she goes again!" and blame the whole thing on me and expect me to apologize and kiss everyone's ass.

I am much less free with public apologies than I used to be, though I am still equally willing to own my actions (a la "I did x. That didn't turn out well.")

There are some people in the world just looking for someone to blame and if they get it stuck in their warped tiny little minds for some reason that you are a good person to blame, good luck escaping their shit. Such people are a case of "The only winning move is not to play." and, unfortunately, you tend to find that out after the fact because they have burned you and will not stop burning you, no matter how above-board, high-minded blah blah blah you handle the situation.

Some people are just hell-bent on proving "No one is actually that good" because they have baggage, so trying to do the right thing consistently just makes you a target of their shit and they really need therapy, but aren't getting it.

Such people seem to be rather poor at letting things go and my impression is some of them will cyberstalk you for years after you try to leave whatever situation originally put you in contact with them.

(Edit: No, this wasn't about my gender. This detail has already been addressed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25087829)

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#173

Post by laughinghan »

macspoofing wrote: post #23

I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphori…

I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual

Sure it has, for example Dan Harmon's public apology to Megan Ganz: https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/11/16879702/dan-harmon-ap...

Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphorical equivalent of blood in the water for attracting sharks.

What are some examples of public apologies that met all 5 of these criteria [1], but made things worse rather than better? Would you consider the possibility that maybe the apologies that made things worse were actually done wrong, but they could have helped if they were done right?

More generally, apologies, restorative justice, truth and reconciliation, and related ideas seem to me like the obvious and only way to we can heal from injustice in our society. Refusing to admit fault seems obviously corrosive to society, and to a person's ego.

[1]: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/5/16710430/sexual-har...

[Edit: man, I feel stupid for complaining about downvotes, but I am really not sure how I could have been more constructive with my disagreement in this comment. I cited examples, suggested an alternative explanation for observations my parent described, and didn't criticize anyone. What did I do wrong? I am ready and willing to apologize if I made any mistakes]

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#174

Post by [deleted] »

willeh wrote: post #14

This is purely my personal opinion, but the wikipedia community seems like one of the most toxic communities on the web. The people contributing to WP - the editors - seem more concerned with coming up with Kafka-esque processes to introduce to the community than making the actual work of making an encyclopaedia. Perhaps the only area where editors are as zealous they are about creating obscure processes, is in polic…

[deleted]

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#175

Post by kbenson »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

I imagine there's a special extra level of problems that apply when the apology reinforces someone's stereotypical views of the apologizer based on the group they appear to be part of, whether those views are held consciously or unconsciously, which makes especially problematic. Most of those attributes or not readily obvious in an online forum, but some are based on pronoun and/or name (mainly gender and nationality, at least historically, and we're talking about assumptions here, so they don't even have to be accurate).

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#176

Post by offtop5 »

vlunkr wrote: post #125
khazhoux wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! Reddit's anonymity and the sheer scale of the site make bullying impossible (hard to imagine /u/subhumanbuttocks88 being victimized by /u/mandocalrissian).

Sure it makes targeted bullying impossible, but not general discrimination. There have been lots of subreddits removed for racism, sexism, etc.

Even then if you want to become a somewhat public figure with a presence on Reddit you can end up with a small team harassing you.

The only winning move is not to play.

In subreddits which are non political you'd still see people injecting nastiness.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#177

Post by textgel »

inopinatus wrote: post #163
textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

The "progressives" you're referring to aren't progressive. They're reactionary authoritarians, hijacking the ideals and preferences of whatever group they're attached to. You can find them in all forms of debased public discourse and lowbrow populism, with a history going back millennia, and uniformly distributed across the political spectrum. No-one called the Spanish Inquisition progressive. I hold a very special l…

This is a a good point; and one I wish I could give you a decent response to as this problem is such a big one and one that I've seen hit plenty of groups I once subscribed to, and evidently from history quite an old one too however I'm at a loss on what the correct response to the phenomenon is.

The cheap response is to whine about "no true scotsman" but I'd love to see ideas on how to prevent groups actually getting corrupted in this way; it's probably in the "how do we create world peace" level of problems but the cycle is getting very wearing!

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#178

Post by hammock »

lapetitejort wrote: post #21
justin_oaks wrote: post #2

> What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow th…

It should be noted that you should contact them about their mistake in the most private way possible, then escalating slowly as the need arises. This follows the "praise in public, punish in private" maxim.

Gospel of Matthew, chapter 18:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#179

Post by joduplessis »

I always remember this very old adage: don't be a dick.

Sooner or later we all make mistakes, but very important to remember that if you're the one holding the pitchfork - your turn might be up next. So, be kind. And if you're the one making the mistake: figure out what/why/how. And try again.

Post reply on HN