Live data from Hacker News

Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

workmanlayout.org

171–180 of 233 posts

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#171
I've been using Workman for 5 years now and it has been wonderful for reduced stress. The difference between QWERTY and workman has been so dramatic that I haven't needed to take any additional steps at managing forearm/wrist stress.

People seem to pontificate about micro-optimizations but the fact is that you're reducing your overall motion of typing by more than half. An ergo keyboard is another way to do that but you still have awkward motions.

Everyone has different sized hands. My fingers are a bit short for my average size. It works well for me.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#172
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I've seen far too many smirks when explaining why my keyboard doesn't do the keys they want as I hurridly re-enable qwerty, or why I type like a 5 year old on their qwerty keyboard. And there's no way i'm getting someone to facilitate my keyboard fetish by installing/enabling any layouts. Plus, it's just _better_ when you can read the keys, and I can't go disassembling keyboards all the time to put the key…

Can't you just plug 2 keyboards, with 1 of them GMK based?

I hear you. I did it. But am I supposed to carry it around with me in a special case for all occasions?

The short of it is that in the end, I stepped down from my horse and conceded that it was more sensible just to make peace with QWERTY and get good at QWERTY'ing. This won't be the case for everyone, I'm just trying to shed light on my experience as "the keyboard guy". Colemak worked for me. The ubiquity of QWERTY worked against me. In the end I capitulated because going against the grain wasn't worth it for me all things considered.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#173

For people looking to try a new layout, I recommend a Carpalx optimized layout. They have very detailed analysis on the layout: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization I've been using it on my Kinesis for a while, and it's totally worth it: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/ki...

I am using the qgmlwy along with a few custom layers and custom modifier keys. Most of the improvements come from touch typing (not a custom keyboard). But a custom keyboard is still an improvement. The biggest issue for me is not the learning part (even though this took months), but the setup: whenever you want to switch os, reinstall, setting up the keyboard is a huge pain.

I have setup my layout on ubuntu with xkb and this took days of full-time work, because xkb is so convoluted. On osx, I just use a custom C script that transforms each keystroke, the code is ugly but this is easy to work with.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#174
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, I've seen far too many smirks when explaining why my keyboard doesn't do the keys they want as I hurridly re-enable qwerty, or why I type like a 5 year old on their qwerty keyboard. And there's no way i'm getting someone to facilitate my keyboard fetish by installing/enabling any layouts. Plus, it's just _better_ when you can read the keys, and I can't go disassembling keyboards all the time to put the key…

> I've seen far too many smirks This reminds me of the "it's easy to be a weirdo now" thread from yesterday. (i.e. no it isn't, we just moved the window a bit) > no way i'm getting someone to facilitate my keyboard fetish That's demeaning to yourself. Ergonomics is important and a keyboard is a work tool. It's like saying that a basketball player has a "shoe fetish" for insisting on using a shoe that is not the same…

> What do you mean, that Apple should sell Colemak keyboards? I agree there, but it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.

You're right, it's chicken and egg. But Apple have a history of making a bold stand around product features.

Phones without keypads, phones without audio jacks, laptops without CDROM, laptops without USB-A.

If someone is able to ween the world off it's QWERTY habit - it's Apple. It doesn't need to be Workman or nothing. It could be as simple as offering Workman as an alternative replacement, signalling a shift toward Workman as the future. Then one day, probably before everyone is ready, no more QWERTY MacBook. Baptism by fire is the only way, in the end.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#175
post #95
post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

> Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special keys (shift, ctrl, backspace, enter) and that's not something colemak, dvorak or their friends seem to be addressing. You're still mostly right, but Colemak does actually move Backspace to the Caps Lock key, which is a change I'd recommend to every single person who types on a computer keyboard.

Hm, as a vi user i have escape there. so if i want to delete something without stretching too much, it's left thumb stretch back one left index stretch down out one (i'm on dvorak too). But since i'm also a kinesis user, i have backspace under my (right) thumb.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#176
post #23

A lot of keyboards optimize the wrong things at least as far as programming is concerned. All the optimizations seem to focus on letters but most of the time an editor or shell can auto complete keywords or identifiers. A ridiculous number of symbols seem to be a very long way from the home keys on weak fingers with modifiers required to access them. If I had to write huge amounts of plain prose and had RSI I think I…

I think this is an example of exceptions looming large in our mind, precisely because they are exceptions, and taking an outsized proportion of our attention. Before you go crazy remapping your keyboard to make symbols easy, take a scan of your real code. I fired a script to count the incidence of all symbols across a couple codebases large enough to be fairly representative here:

    Perl                   Java            Go
    1 . spc - %26.40       spc - %17.98    spc - %10.43
    2 .   e - %6.15        e - %7.93       e - %8.92
    3 .   a - %4.41        t - %6.76       r - %6.83
    4 .   t - %4.34        r - %5.68       t - %6.72
    5 .   r - %3.85        s - %5.34       s - %4.99
    6 .   s - %3.84        a - %5.19       i - %4.83
    7 .   i - %3.34        i - %4.96       n - %4.67
    8 .   o - %3.03        o - %3.95       o - %4.57
    9 .  \n - %2.99        n - %3.79       a - %4.41
    10.   n - %2.97        p - %3.37      \t - %3.60
    11.   l - %2.67        u - %2.91      \n - %3.44
    12.   d - %2.32        c - %2.79       c - %3.05
    13.   c - %2.25        d - %2.55       l - %2.73
    14.   u - %2.07        l - %2.50       u - %2.55
    15.   _ - %2.02       \n - %2.44       d - %2.32
    16.   $ - %1.70        . - %1.99       p - %2.08
    17.   m - %1.70        m - %1.94       g - %1.98
    18.   p - %1.55        g - %1.62       . - %1.81
    19.   f - %1.41        ) - %1.29       m - %1.65
    20.   h - %1.31        ( - %1.28       b - %1.62
scp is space. Even Perl, a notoriously symbol-heavy language, has its first "symbol" show up only slot 15. This codebase prefers separation_by_underscores, so if you have camelCase you might not even get that. Java's first shows up as the period in 16, go's slots in at 18. (Go programmers typically aren't using the TAB key that much, it's autoformatted into existence with gofmt.)

I'm not saying there's no room for a bit of optimization, but I suspect a lot of programmers would mentally place symbols way higher than they actually belong in the precedence scale.

The other problem that emerges if you get too serious with this is that the languages are different enough that if you do swap out some symbols for some more privileged spaces on your keyboard, they aren't the same ones across languages. In Perl, $ shows up in slot 16 at 1.7%. In Java, it's slot 66 at .01%. Java favors the period first in slot 16 at 2%, in Perl that's slot 40 at .37%. I once did a reasonable attempt at a multi-language survey with roughly equal amounts of each language and what I found was if you're multilingual you have only marginal improvements available with the symbols.

Whether it's worth it is up to you, but the fruit here is much less low-hanging than you might think.

(I don't have a J/K codebase here to check.)

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#177

DON'T DO IT* I absolutely love Workman. It's gorgeous. I spent months learning it, getting fast with it. I even got the supercool matrix style keyboard, I was so into it. But now I use QWERTY, and I sold my matrix style keyboard. Why? 1. Using the standard is useful. Other people's computers use QWERTY. Terminals for typing things in airports use QWERTY. When you have to do first aid stuff on your system, you're not…

There is a truth here. But doesn't it sound like don't install applications, don't customize your system? It is a personal computer. And defaults are bad. I can hardly type QWERTY and it is fine. On the other hand - Dvorak, swapped Ctrl and Alt, Caps Lock to switch language. And that's in tiling WM on minor Linux distribution. When you break things you can break them hard.

I would argue pretty strongly with "defaults are bad"! Defaults are what you should use until you can very clearly explain why a customization is significantly better (and sometimes that is the case!). It's a boring, lowerst-common-denominator attitude that goes against the things that most of us here enjoy doing, but customizations are more things to think about and maintain, and ways in which my system operates differently from other people, making it harder to give and receive help.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#178
post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

I switched to Dvorak before I started uni. I have been typing dvorak the majority of my typing. Still discovered the hard way that I needed an ergonomic keyboard. I use a kinesis advantage, but frankly a Microsoft one will do. It just needs to be enough. Also major factor: Switching away from a mouse. Every time I've done full time work at a computer (i.e. when I'm not studying), I got wrist pain. Switching to a touc…

I had the same experience. After trying Dvorak and Colemak and even stenography for a while I decided it was time to explore more hardware.

Went from mouse → trackpad → trackball. I tried fingerballs and thumbballs and settled on the Logitech MX Ergo (thumbball). Using the digit with the strongest muscles makes a lot of sense to me, although it helps to have bigger hands.

I wouldn't go back to a trackpad, even with the loss of gestures (I just use keyboard/trackball shortcuts instead), and I wouldn't go back to a mouse — pushing a rock repeatedly to move a pointer around the screen just feels weird to me now, and I notice wrist cramp within an hour.

Similar story with keyboards. I went Apple Magic Wireless → Ergodox EZ → Microsoft Surface Ergo (the default angle works great for me so I don't have to adjust anything and I like the single piece of hardware over the Ergodox; it's easier to move between rooms). I have the Keyboardio Atreus on order and am looking forward to comparing that. It seems like the perfect balance between size, features, hackability, and ergonomics to me.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/atreus

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#179
Here's a good PyCon presentation from someone who switched to voice input for programming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpv-Qb-dB6g

I hadn't thought about it until this thread, but one of the biggest barriers for me using it was that we have a really quiet open office, but now that we are WFH...

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I like the thumb keys (2 per thumb would be enough for me though), the tap/hold feature and the central special keys on ergodox for instance. I have not found anything like that for laptops. Not even a split space bar. The tap/hold feature is possible at the os level, with caveats. I usually map the key left to the space bar to Enter.

What is tap/hold? I believe some people have done portable kinesis builds, which could be an option in tandem with a laptop.

A good example is the space cadet shift. If I tap left shift, I get an open parenthesis. If I hold it and use any other key, I get a capital letter. It's a lot nicer than hitting shift+9/0 and I got used to it in about 10 minutes.

Any keyboard using the QMK keyboard firmware can do this.

Post reply on HN