Live data from Hacker News

Coronavirus and Credibility

paulgraham.com

171–180 of 968 posts

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#171
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accepting that overreacting is much more desirable I wish that were true but it is not. It is entirely possible to take actions that make a bad situation worse. The consequences of an economic shutdown, for example, are unknown. The worst case of global depression and supply chain disruption is just as bad as the virus itself, if not more so. I do not know how one makes good decisions in a situation of highly uncer…

When you're in a situation where the severity of the outcome doubles every 4 days and you do not have clear information about where the curve will break, underreacting will result in extremely bad outcomes much much much more often than overreacting For a simplified example just compare the cost of taking actions that make you break the curve 4 days too early with the situation where you break the curve 4 days too la…

> When you're in a situation where the severity of the outcome doubles every 4 days and you do not have clear information about where the curve will break, underreacting will result in extremely bad outcomes much much much more often than overreacting

> For a simplified example just compare the cost of taking actions that make you break the curve 4 days too early with the situation where you break the curve 4 days too late

But does it seem that implausible that cooler heads might find a solution that doesn't cost at least $20 trillion?

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#172
post #119
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still making a large portion of the people who aren't dying extremely ill . I think one of the biggest public health communication disasters of covid19 is the reliance on mortality as the communication endpoint. It's acceptable for other threats-- like automotive accidents-- to speak in terms of mortality because there isn't a huge population which is much less exposed to dying but still exposed to serious illne…

Curious: what are you basing this on? Do you have some statistical data that shows hospitalization rates of young people _because of_ (instead of just _with_) corona virus? I myself haven't yet seen any data that would make this virus any worse than the flu (which means it's still dangerous, just maybe not "everybody-hide-under-the-rock" dangerous). Even data from Italy doesn't show mortality any higher than previous…

> hospitalization rates of young people _because of_ (instead of just _with_) corona virus?

What do you think the mechanism is here? Why are people being hospitalised with covid-19, if it's not covid-19 causing the hospitalisation?

People under 50 don't spend much time in ITUs on ventilators, until covid-19 happens and now the ITUs are full of people with covid-19 having air pumped into their lungs to push the fluid out.

What's causing that if not covid-19?

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#173

> They didn't realize there was any danger in making false predictions. Is there any danger for them? PG seems to have very idealistic view of politics. As far as I know, any amount of fact checking in politics don't change political views. Will Fox News lose any viewers over this? Politicians may lose jobs because bad economy, but will they lose votes because they were wrong and ignorant? H. L. Mencken wrote: > No o…

Votes will be lost, because people are unnecessarily putting themselves and others at risk, and some will die.

What you're saying is that votes should be lost. Claiming that they will be is a stretch.

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#174

> Now that we've seen the results, let's remember what we saw, because this is the most accurate test of credibility we're ever likely to have. No, this is a terrible test of credibility. Journalists and politicians often go the other way, amplifying the danger, or outrage, or worry. Taking the outside view, it's overwhelmingly likely that any forecasted pandemic or disaster doesn't happen; we almost always get sky-i…

> we almost always get sky-is-falling predictions and then nothing really seems to happen from the perspective of most viewers or readers. Swine flu, bird flu, ebola, zika, on and on: these have previously in media-market memory been hyped as global catastrophes in the making, and then they turn into localized awfulness

...because WHO and those local regions spend considerable time and effort preventing catastrophe.

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#175
Flu in the US: 0.13-0.28% mortality [1]

Covid-19 in China: 0.50-0.66% mortality [2, 3]

I mean from numbers it is indeed not much worse than flu, but we don't know the potential extra deaths caused by running out of ICU beds.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html

[2] https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327

[3] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v...

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#176
post #99
post #47

If it was not Paul Graham this would never has made it to HN front page, but ok... One of his point is that people should not talk about things they don't know about. So maybe he should start applying that to himself first (and maybe this to myself right now). The question is, how do you define the threshold of expertise require before you start talking about a subject? The concepts of truth, credibility, ethics, deo…

No, his point was people shouldn't talk with _absolute confidence_ about things they don't know about. Usually in everyday life we hint at our confidence level with the language we use: 'might', 'probably', etc. These people have trained themselves not to do that, which they previously have gotten away with.

As an immigrant, and I'm sure many foreigners would agree, this is extremely American.

People, gentile people, who use "might" and "probably" are weak intellectuals by American standards. They are cast aside, especially in media, because they cannot give definite answers. This is science and science doesn't sell.

Politicians and media types are sales-people.

This really depends on the family and milieu you grew up around and are engaged with generally in life.

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#177

From what I'm reading, I think there are still a significant minority of people who think this isn't an issue. I've had to learn to just walk away from comments on a variety of media where comments such as 'psychosomatic', 'less dangerous than the flu that kills 50,000 each year', 'patented by the illuminati', 'caused by 5G masts', and so on. I ended up deleting my twitter account as I dared try to engage with one UK…

What's different, I suppose, is that certain types of people have a huge platform in the US via Fox News and the like.

In my country, The Netherlands, for the most part people didn't really seem to take things seriously, even when our PM told us to. All the same kinds of talking points (similar to flu, lots of people die from car accidents, etc.).

And so in the first weekend, with some restrictions already in place and Italy being in deep trouble, we all went to sit in parks and socialize like nothing was wrong.

It was only the week after that things changed. The government didn't suddenly enforce a full-on lockdown, but rather it was a combination of 1) our PM imploring everyone to change their behavior, 2) partial social distancing measures that were noticeable (events cancelled, restaurants closed for anything but take-out/pick-up), and perhaps 3) a sinking-in of how bad things were going elsewhere.

I've been 'immersing' myself in how the media reports things, the political debates and press conferences, and the way my social circles and people on the streets respond, and so far my impression is that there are two crucial factors that have resulted in 'proper' behaviour around here, despite the great weather: First, as it becomes clear that actual things change (limited no. of people in a supermarket, restaurants closed, specific public spaces closed when necessary), people realize it's not just abstract, and 2) while we are an individualist, recalcitrant bunch, we do ultimately have a lot of trust in the expertise of our government (whether justified or not).

I'm very interested to see how things develop in the US, and quite concerned in particular when it comes to 2.

EDIT: I'll add that personally I think at least initially our government was way too laissez-faire about this, and probably more so than many other countries in Europe other than the UK (and Sweden?). Our PM was/is perhaps too torn between taking things seriously and keeping the economy going. Which I suppose is exactly what he should be doing as a center-right politician.

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#178
post #175

Flu in the US: 0.13-0.28% mortality [1] Covid-19 in China: 0.50-0.66% mortality [2, 3] I mean from numbers it is indeed not much worse than flu, but we don't know the potential extra deaths caused by running out of ICU beds. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html [2] https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327 [3] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031773v...

And that's with a century of research and experience treating serious cases of influenza, and none for Covid-19.

Covid-19 is serious, but the major crisis right now is that it's new, and the medical system is struggling to adapt.

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#179
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just goes to show that people will continue to ignore an exponential trend until it eats their lunch personally . FWIW, totally aside from that, CDC numbers for the "flu" are actually a combined "flu and pneumonia", and according to the NHS in the UK-- which doesn't bin the same way-- no more than 1/3rds of those deaths are due to the flu. Other estimates have put the flu well under 10% of flu+pneumonia, though with…

> people will continue to ignore an exponential trend Every cold and flu grow exponentially. Not sure what the fixation of HN readers is on the work exponential. Although true, using it doesn't add anything to analysis of corona virus specifically. I'd rather talk about the false hope in ventilators, and the futility and destruction to our economy by lockdown.

> Although true, using it doesn't add anything to analysis of corona virus specifically.

The issue of exponential growth is of relevance in response to those saying that the number of deaths (insert the inplicit 'so far' here) is much less than from infuenza (annually.) It is not a 'fixation' to expose the irrelevance of that line of thinking.

More generally, the issue is a combination of the facts that this virus is significantly more dangerous, for all age groups, than at least post- Spanish Flu infuenza; it is very readily transmitted; and there is no (or much less) herd immunity. When you combine these fact with the math of exponential growth, and have establshed the doubling rate, you can do some scientific prediction that goes beyond "so far it has not been as bad as the flu", which is true just so long as it is, and no longer. To do that, however, you have to hold more than one idea at a time in your head.

Re: Coronavirus and Credibility

#180
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there is quite a number of medical professionals, who say exactly this: massive lockdowns of general population aren't necessary Who?

Consider this your homework. Google hasn't shutdown yet.

Congratulations on finding a way to turn not having evidence to back up your argument into being condescending.
Post reply on HN