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L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

latimes.com

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Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#171

Post by angleofrepose »

wildmusings wrote: post #162
chance_state wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber has resisted the rule for months, arguing, with the backing of several data privacy organizations, that the city’s policy constitutes government surveillance. With minimal analysis, they say, the information could easily reveal where people live, work, socialize or worship. I actually laughed out loud when I read this. Incredible that these companies have the audacity to take that stance. "It is only we, the t…

I’m confused that HN is suddenly enthralled with giving real time location data to the government. There was actually a recent Supreme Court case that extended Fourth Amendment protections to such data.

If that were the case:

> enthralled with giving real time location data to the government

Then I would completely agree with you, but as I point out in the first except of my original comment, this IS NOT the case. Maybe the reporting is wrong, and therefore I'm wrong, but I'm frustrated by the general consensus in this thread being what you just wrote. That is not the situation. And similarly, I'm frustrated by the implicit defense of ride share companies here. As I end my original comment, I distrust both municipalities and these ride share companies. I'm not enthralled by anything here.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#172

Post by thanatos_dem »

zachkatz wrote: post #134
testfoobar wrote: post #88

Of all the public-goods usurped for private profit companies recently, I find the scooters to be the most intrusive. Scooters on sidewalks are dangerous and should be banned. We have explicit laws against skateboarding and riding bicycles on sidewalks in most communities. For bicyclists in San Francisco: "It’s illegal to ride on the sidewalk if you are over the age of 13. (SF Transportation Code Sec. 7.2.12)" https:/…

Now do cars.

Cars aren’t allowed to drive down sidewalks in any jurisdictions I’m aware of.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#173

Post by Nasrudith »

AlexandrB wrote: post #37
dpratt wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain how it is legal for Uber to send a team of armed men to kick down my door at 3am and forcibly confine me to a cell.

This weird paranoia about the government acting with no consequence seems to never extend to 2nd or 3rd layer thinking. If the government could send a team of armed me to kick down your door at 3am and forcibly confine you to a cell with no due process, they could do the same to the CEO of Uber to get your information in the first place. Having a layer of indirection in the form of a private company is little-to-no p…

It makes perfect sense in a cynical way - the government would face way more backlash if they went after the CEO of Uber as opposed to a probable nobody like you in the sense that "you are unlikely to cause major consequences which threaten their aparatus of power".

If they made a habit of doing that without a serious trail of justification under the law capital flight would be historic - damaging their income and GDP/the source of economic power, and damaging stability. It isn't even anything overtly sinister - just sensing that given the peril it is time to get the hell out of there.

And that is without lobbying and soft power aren't available.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#174

Post by angleofrepose »

spenrose wrote: post #69
tyxodiwktis wrote: post #64

The core issue is that ridership data is a key piece the cities need to craft a tax on ride-sharing, and to tailor the tax to help their financially challenged public transit entities. Uber knows that if they give up scooter use data the city will immediately request it for ride sharing as well. The privacy question conveniently aligns with Uber’s position, but I doubt that this is Uber’s core concern vs avoiding eve…

You have the dynamic correct but the values backwards. Cities are defined by their physical and social density and their long-term investments in physical capital. Uber lacks a sustainable business model. Transportation within a city features many "natural" monopolies (i.e. train tracks), and the promise of an emergent overarching monopoly: providing one-App entry into multi-modal transportation. If Uber can capture…

> Transportation within a city features many "natural" monopolies (i.e. train tracks), and the promise of an emergent overarching monopoly: providing one-App entry into multi-modal transportation.

I don't understand what you are saying here, can you elaborate? What are you saying about Uber / monopolistic rideshare companies?

Related, I don't understand why cities/governments allow Uber to exist considering the reality that, as you point out, "Uber lacks a sustainable business model". Is it not transparent to all relevant parties that Uber could not and cannot maintain the price it has set to gain market share, and that down the line it had a clear goal of building monopolistic market share in order to effectively price fix against the interest of the consumers? I don't know enough to reflect on public transport and taxi companies of old, but how did we get to present day without consumer protection regulations sorting things out?

I see parallels with Amazon, and I have the same questions. Why are they entertained in this destruction of local economies by the entities which should protect those economies (in the US, local and state gov)?

I wonder if Barnes and Nobel's effect destruction of local book stores had a period of growth with lower prices then settled down and raised prices? If so, is this not against the interest of the consumer? If not, well I'm not sure. Maybe Barnes and Nobel is not comparable to these internet based companies.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#175

Post by joombaga »

Jakob wrote: post #52
notyourwork wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched someone dismantle a jump bike lock last week outside my apartment while walking my dog. Considering that and how often I see homeless riding them in sf, I suspect they are more easily stolen than you suggest.

Oh sorry I didn’t mean the jump bikes but the aforementioned DB bikes in Munich: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=call+a+bike+munich I would be very surprised if someone can dismantle them on the street. But nevertheless if you have another bike right next to it which is worth more, lighter, faster and easier to crack why even bother?

Perhaps the thief would prefer a bike that isn't likely to get stolen.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#176

Post by samatman »

scelerat wrote: post #118
hombre_fatal wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if we're going to go down this route, we should have these systems in our cars, too.

No one wants to go there because freedom but I (reluctantly) agree. There might be safety considerations, too, but I'm guessing they are mostly edge case type issues

There are massive safety implications.

We expect pressing the gas pedal to have a predictable outcome.

Subverting this expectation is potentially quite dangerous.

Consider that someone might temporarily exceed the speed limit while passing, legally, in the oncoming traffic lane. Then this system kicks in, they can't pass, and get hit by oncoming traffic because they're pinned by the car they tried to pass.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#177

Post by notpeter »

In case folks are curious about the underlying technical details, LADOT along with the Open Mobility Foundation (OMF) built the Mobility Data Specification (MDS) which are "RESTful APIs used to specify the digital relationship between mobility as a service Providers and the Agencies that regulate them."

API Spec: https://github.com/CityOfLosAngeles/mobility-data-specificat...

Uber, as they do, is refusing to comply with laws/provide data that would enable local governments to actually regulate them. As I understand it, the pilot phase was for Bikes/Scooters, but the intention is to require use of similar APIs by car based rideshare companies in the future. Which explains some of Uber's resistance despite this only currently covering JUMP Bike Share.

There's a number of other cities (NYC, Miami, Philly, SF, SJ, SEA, etc) involved with OMF/MDS. LADOT is one of the first implementations but they aren't doing it all in house. Much of the design/development of the mobility API spec and open source implementation[2] has been contracted out to Lacuna.ai (via Ellis & Associates, a wholly owned subsidiary)[3].

[2]: https://github.com/CityOfLosAngeles/mds-core

[3]: http://clkrep.lacity.org/onlinecontracts/2019/C-130956_c_7-2...

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#178

Post by robomartin »

angleofrepose wrote: post #156
robomartin wrote: post #86

This is preposterous. Imagine government requiring any business to delivery real time data on customer behavior, from doctors to restaurants, Walmart to dispensaries. The Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution is about privacy FROM GOVERNMENT INTRUSION, which is precisely what this is, an intrusive act on the part of government. Why don't they devote their time and effort to actually fixing the crumbling infrastruct…

From the article: > Companies are required to transmit real-time data on all trips made within the city, including the start point, end point and travel time. From your comment: > real time data on customer behavior If the article is to be trusted (I have no other sources) then this analogy is inaccurate. The city, by this reporting is not asking for customer behavior, its asking for scooter location, and for that ma…

I am not sure it is a fierce defense of rideshare companies as much as it is about opposition to government overreach and the proverbial slippery slope. They don't need real time scooter data any more than they need real time car data.

I mean, one could make an argument for the utility of a transponder on every vehicle on the highway to use this data to gain an understanding of flow patterns with the aim of improving traffic flow, laws, efficiency, etc.

Frankly, having had the pleasure of driving the 405 for several years as part of a 50 mile commute (each way) I could see the potential benefit of having this data so long as it is used in a determined effort to improve traffic flow. Our traffic rules and laws are a mess.

The problem is that this kind of thing expands the surveillance state. I am, by no means, a conspiracy theorist, but I have also had "interesting" experiences in other countries where the state and law enforcement are far less constrained than they are here. These rights are precious and must be defended.

Yes, sometimes opposition can seem --or even is-- petty. Before we know it we have eroded our freedom by a thousand little petty things that collectively take out big chunks before we are able to realize what we've done.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#179

Post by Someone1234 »

reaperducer wrote: post #146
Someone1234 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar argument could be made for banning running on sidewalks. In fact a runner could exceed the maximum electric speed of these scooters. It is ultimately up to the rider to assure safe operating regardless of mode of transport (feed, skateboard, scooter, etc). The fact that skateboards were widely banned due to a moral panic (largely around culture, not safety), isn't in itself a very strong argument since I'd…

A similar argument could be made for banning running on sidewalks When there's a rash of people being hurt by inattentive runners smacking into them, that will be addressed, too.

So why the double standard for scooters and skateboards? Aside from scooter users injuring themselves, there hasn't been a significant problem and yet we're discussing a ban.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#180

Post by zachkatz »

thanatos_dem wrote: post #172
zachkatz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do cars.

Cars aren’t allowed to drive down sidewalks in any jurisdictions I’m aware of.

Right, because they have multiple dedicated lanes that are designed to drive in. Bikes and scooters don’t have the same luxury, so they have to choose between risking getting killed by riding among cars, or riding on the sidewalk. The solution is obviously to build safe infrastructure for scooters.
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