Live data from Hacker News

Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

cleantechnica.com

171–180 of 348 posts

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#171
post #150

Tesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leaf…

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

Model 3 appears to be the #6 best selling car in USA last quarter* and I don't believe there is much of any USA tax incentive anymore.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/06/tesla-model-3-6th-best-...

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The critical goal is to further develop electric cars so they become the obvious choice for consumers. should be The critical goal is to further reduce CO2 in the atmosphere .

You can reduce CO2 emissions from an internal combustion by making it more efficient, but there is not way you can ever bring it down to zero. Thus if you want to ever get to zero, you need to electrify the transport. We can produce synthetic fuel, but it will be very hard to reach the kind of volumes we have for fossil fuels, hence synthetic fuels should only be used for long range trucks, airplanes etc. All transpo…

> Thus if you want to ever get to zero, you need to electrify the transport.

necessary, but not sufficient.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#173
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the downvoters: powered by the average German grid, a Tesla emits about 75g CO2/100km. Please show me any combustion engined vehicle that comes even close to those numbers. Of course the "emissions" of the electric cars can only get better from there.

When you add load to a grid that's in the process of decarbonizing, you need to look at the marginal impact. Taking the average energy mix is bad math, because you're delaying the shutdown of the dirtiest sources. This can get more complicated if you have excess renewable energy generation at times, where the use is essentially free. Not to mention demand dispatch to smooth intermittent renewables. I'm a big EV fan,…

It is more a philosophical question. If you add demand to a system should it be counted like a marginal addition, or as the same as the current demand. Most studies on the subject of the full cycle of CO2 emission of EV tend to use average carbon intensity of the electricity. The few studies that use marginal carbon intensity are from mostly biased anti EV, pro fossil fuel sources.

Also it is not always the worse carbonated source that is added when demand surge, for example coal is rather slow to increase, so the grid operator probably kept some hydro power to the rescue, nuclear can ramp up rather quickly too.

If you are really interested in minimizing the carbon intensity of the charge, you can use the api of ElectricityMap that gives you those numbers, and automatically charge your car based on a maximum carbon intensity and some fancy heuristics.

They also have a good article on the marginal electricity of European countries : https://www.tmrow.com/blog/marginal-carbon-intensity-of-elec...

Also here is an article on the subject (in french) translated here : https://www.i-care-consult.com/opinions/contenu-co2-de-lelec...

The so-called "average emission factor" method. This method is the existing and historical "default" method currently made available by ADEME: it consists in using a national average emission factor for electricity (this "average" factor also exists by use). This method makes it possible to "attribute" to each French actor its "share" of national emissions and to carry out a balance sheet (this is why it is the method used for regulatory GHG balances). However, this method is not suitable for properly assessing the impact of an action plan: it does not take into account the fact that changing the consumption curve or the production fleet modifies the structure of the energy mix itself, and therefore the average CO2 content per kWh.

The so-called "marginal" method: this method was published in 2007 by ADEME-RTE but is no longer institutionally relevant, although it is still used by some independent actors. This method is based on the principles of optimizing the electricity production fleet (merit order principles): at each moment, an upward (or downward) change in consumption leads to an increase (decrease) in production from the so-called "marginal" means, i.e. from the means available at lower cost at that moment: the means of production can thus be classified from the least expensive to the most expensive (variable production cost), this is what is called the "merit order". If we consider the emission factor of the marginal means of production, we are talking about the marginal CO2 content of electricity. In 2007, RTE and ADEME reported marginal values ranging from 450 g CO2/kWh (for base uses) to 700g CO2/kWh (for peak uses). This method is adapted to the consequential reasoning of modifying production or consumption, and therefore to the evaluation of the impact of actions on the electricity system, but this reasoning is valid at the margin: actions that would have a very significant impact (e. g. significant modification of the nuclear fleet, new use such as the electric vehicle), and that would significantly modify the stack of means of production cannot be evaluated with this method.

The so-called "incremental" method: this method has not been officially published by ADEME but has been the subject of various proposals from energy companies and professional associations. It is based on the idea that for some structuring actions, a "marginal" reasoning (mathematical notion of a value derived from the CO2 content of a kWh) is no longer valid, and that in this case it is necessary to use the comparison of 2 supply/demand balance scenarios (the no-action scenario and the action scenario) and to compare the GHG emissions associated with these 2 scenarios. The resulting value of this method depends on the extent of the system modification (upward or downward, in energy and power). This method, which is the most complex but also the most theoretically accurate, should therefore be used when the marginal method is outside its field of validity.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The critical goal is to further develop electric cars so they become the obvious choice for consumers. should be The critical goal is to further reduce CO2 in the atmosphere .

You can reduce CO2 emissions from an internal combustion by making it more efficient, but there is not way you can ever bring it down to zero. Thus if you want to ever get to zero, you need to electrify the transport. We can produce synthetic fuel, but it will be very hard to reach the kind of volumes we have for fossil fuels, hence synthetic fuels should only be used for long range trucks, airplanes etc. All transpo…

> You can reduce CO2 emissions from an internal combustion by making it more efficient, but there is not way you can ever bring it down to zero.

You can bring the net environmental impact of CO2 to zero by using a fuel with a carbon neutral cycle, such as biofuels; if you are regrowing as much source material as you are consuming, there is no net emission.

> Thus if you want to ever get to zero, you need to electrify the transport.

Individually, no, but practically, for most transport in use, probably.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#175
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasoline burns very cleanly in modern (that is, Compared to those two, though, coal power plants are dirty as hell, and I’d take equivalent amount of car emissions to generate the same power over coal any day.

I code at a hospital, which is in a poor neighborhood. The garbage exhaust on my walk in to work from cheap old cars is unbelievable, to say nothing of 18 wheelers and huge trucks rolling through this poor neighboring neighborhood all day. Kids living there are straight up taking lung and brain damage from that exhaust. So it does grind my gears when people talk about coal EVs being dirtier, they just dont think of p…

Trucks running dirty diesel aren’t really the same thing as a modern gasoline car.

Particulate pollution from highways and major roads is definitely a real issue and there have been studies done showing a lot of health problems result from living 250-500m or closer to such a road.

But if we’re talking about a modern emissions-compliant gas/petrol ICE vs a coal power plant I’m not sure how that shakes out. Coal power emissions are estimated to have massive health effects that affect millions as well.

(Of course, best solution is electric car powered by nat gas, nuclear, or renewables which don’t emit particulates at all...)

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#176
post #159
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

It depends on what price you pay for Electricity, but paying for the electricity is more than half as cheap as paying for gas. Plus in the US there are so many free chargers, I just charge my car at the office.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can find every this everywhere https://imgur.com/a/yH2qnnR It's not my car... I had humble bikes :)

Unfortunately the actual image doesn't seem to load for me.

EDIT: It now works. Not sure what was up before. Thanks, this makes sense and looks really seamless!

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do not have unquestionable alternatives to nuclear in Germany for generating electricity to power an industrial country on a stable rate. The demand for power will additionally grow with adoption of electric cars. For densely populated industrial country in Germany’s climate zone using renewables can be disasterous - we already pay too much for electricity, wind and solar panels are space-inefficient, we does not…

It makes a lot more sense to build gas power plants as a stop gap measure. Built them to support gasification of biomass. Thus you can due feel them with natural gas or biomass as needed. This is much faster to get going and cheaper than nuclear. With nuclear you spend such an enormous amount of money building it, that there is not going back on the decision afterwards. Nuclear power plants are having enormous cost o…

It is an option to explore, particularly regarding using biomass. I see some concerns about it though:

- CO2 emission of gas power plants,

- dependence on the import of natural gas - it means dependence on Russia.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#179
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Unfortunately the housing company does not allow installation of a wallbox in the garage...Large-scale adoption of electric cars is unrealistic when the majority of people have nowhere to charge it." This can be solved with a law in a heartbeat. Installations etc take their time but the state itself subsidizes them--if they want to drive adoption rate up. So like they have parking meters they can put charging stati…

There are many rules and regulations that need to be cut through. Staying with friends in Hawaii, I asked where we could drop our towels. They said they had to go into the drier, it was against the rules to have clothes drying on the balcony. So to satisfy some idiotic idea of aesthetics, we're going to burn electricity instead of just using the sun?

Yeah. Some states have passed laws preventing this nonsense.

People are so worried about looking “poor” that they waste electricity on the dryer rather than using the sun to dry their clothes. I mentioned using a clothesline once to someone else in the USA, who was shocked and responded they weren’t poor and wouldn’t want their neighbors to be scandalized by drying clothes in the sun.

There at least are 19 states in the USA that have passed laws outlawing solar drying bans, unfortunately I think most of these laws only apply to homeowners and not to rented apartments.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#180
post #159
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

>If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric.

The electric bill makes a big difference, because you're really looking at the relative cost of two different forms of energy -- electrical and chemical (fuel). The last time I calculated it, the cost of running an ICE was around 20% more expensive (in my area) than a BEV, but a PHEV was within a percent or so of owning a BEV.

I'm curious to know what percentage of EV owners in Norway have a second car. I'd imagine the uptake rate for families that can afford to own more than one vehicle is significantly higher than for those that can't, but I've never seen any stats on the matter. The reality is that for most people, a car is the second largest purchase they'll ever make (if not the largest), so utility has to be high on the list of priorities. I'm not entirely convinced EVs have the utility to overtake ICE vehicles just yet, especially when incentives are removed.

Post reply on HN