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200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

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Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#171
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what are these displaced american workers doing for more than $80k? Being unemployed and making 0k. Avoiding hiring US employees for over $80k doesn't mean they're hiring those who accept below $80k. They're not being considered for those jobs at all in the first place. I assure you there are legions of very smart lawyers who work very hard on the process for employers - I would know, I've prepared the petitions, an…

The lack of perspective and basic reasoning on this is staggering. > shitty wages, hours, and work environment. A "shitty" wage is better than being unemployed and making 0k. Perhaps not if we were talking about at or near minimum wage. But we're not. We're talking nearly double the median income of the location in question and well beyond the poverty line. If there were really this untapped market of native talent t…

> You don't need a legion of smart lawyers to hire from this large, unemployed, qualified, bonafide American talent pool

true, but I think the point is that the lawyer fees are less than the extra costs and risks associated with hiring from the existing pool of local US workers (i.e. losses from employees who freely leave the company after a short period, transfer knowledge to competitors, shop around for higher salaries, and confidently exercise the fuller collection of employee rights which H1Bs may lack)

> If you really know someone in tech that is unemployed and making nothing, then either they are not qualified or they have some other limitation making them unemployable.

That's certainly one interpretation of the matter. Here's another: If the labor pool lacked exogenous labor inputs, it is possible (though far from guaranteed) that corporations would be willing to use their resources to hire more from the existing pool of US candidates and then train them and/or help them to overcome other limitations.

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#172
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What does hiring qualified h1b visa holders have to do with anything? Because as surprising as this may sound to you there are plenty of qualified talent already in the USA that can't compete with the lower wages companies can pay H1B employees. I see plenty of H1B employees who will literally eat shit from management over the fear of losing their status. I'm not against bringing in hard to find talent that we don't…

They can't compete? How can they not compete? The link you're showing me shows average wages for the H1-B group near $80k for all occupations. That's well above the median income for Texas, and well well above the poverty line. So if this large pool of workers in the US can't "compete" what are they doing? Refusing to work and therefore making $0 rather than making $98k? That doesn't make sense. You seem to be implyi…

A prominent example of how Americans are discriminated against, and how H1-B's are favored: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff...

If a high-profile company like Disney can pull this off, think about how many smaller outfits would be doing this and flying under the radar.

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#173
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2k a week for 4 days a week sounds amazing, especially for a first job. I'd definitely take a pay cut for that deal.

He means 2k per month, but with a 4-day work week, so probably 32 hours. Not sure if that is supposed to be before or after taxes tough, if it's before taxes, ouch.

Yup, 32 hours/week (on paper) and slightly less than 2k/month before taxes.

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#174
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Glassdoor is pay for prestige.

Contrary to what the GP is saying, Glassdoor seems EXTREMELY resistant unless the review is actually fake and/or contains proprietary information. It's absolutely nothing like Yelp. I do understand that they have their "own" system that automatically reviews posts and removes them. Sadly that hasn't worked out fantastically at my employer, they mostly remove these 5 star reviews.

Another reason why Glassdoor takes down negative reviews is that often the 1 or 2 star reviews don't follow their content guidelines [0].

- [Your review should be truthful and constitute your own personal opinion] -- Any review that contains false information that the company can easily prove is wrong can be removed.

- [Each individual is allowed one review, per employer, per year, per review type.] If the company can prove a review is a dup, it can be removed

- [We do not allow reviews that include negative comments about identifiable individuals outside of this group.] - A review saying "My coworker Alice was a real A Hole." can easily be removed

- [We realize talking about work can get emotionally charged, but we don't approve reviews that include certain profanities] -- Anything that's aggressively worded "I worked at this company, it fu* sucks" will be removed

I'd guess than 90% of Glassdoor reviews removed blatantly break their guidelines. There is probably another 10% that consist of companies trying to game the system, but it's impossible to know for sure.

[0] https://help.glassdoor.com/article/Community-Guidelines/en_U...

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#175
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that doesn't change the economics at all. the money paid to the worker through a middle-man has no bearing on the labor market as seen by the company and their bottom-line. You could send your paycheck into the incinerator every month... it makes no difference. as you say the $80k is the rate to avoid hiring a US employee. maybe that's lower than what it would be with no h1-b, but then what are these displaced americ…

>what are these displaced american workers doing for more than $80k? Being unemployed and making 0k. Avoiding hiring US employees for over $80k doesn't mean they're hiring those who accept below $80k. They're not being considered for those jobs at all in the first place. I assure you there are legions of very smart lawyers who work very hard on the process for employers - I would know, I've prepared the petitions, an…

> There are entire IT departments at companies like Disney, for instance, that are de-facto off limits to American workers.

what I hear from people who work or used to work in IT at Hollywood media companies is that Disney is not alone in that

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#176
post #66
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to hijack, but do you or your spouse have an opinion on the WSJ story about companies intensely curating their reviews (maybe even paying/threatening the employees and/or Glassdoor)? I noticed a local company I follow had fluctuating review counts between 30-45. I wrote a web scraper to see if reviews were being taken down, and for this company, over 20 1 or 2 star reviews have been taken down, but any new 5 star…

I used to work for a place where, during the 60 or 90 day check-in with HR after you got hired, HR would put a hard sell on you to write a Glassdoor review. It had the effect of flooding it with 4 and 5 star reviews from people who hasn't been around long enough to see any downsides to their job. Meanwhile, as the company began imploding, the folks jumping ship mostly didn't bother to write a 1 star review on the way…

I have a theory that this happens in Amazon to cheap products (e.g. it's great the first couple months and breaks after 6, but the review is made several weeks after the first product). The reviews mean less as a result, and the only good signal is a heartfelt review from someone who has used the product (or in Glassdoor's case, has worked there a while) a while (and it's worth scrolling pages of the meaningless review to find them).

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#177
post #70
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to hijack, but do you or your spouse have an opinion on the WSJ story about companies intensely curating their reviews (maybe even paying/threatening the employees and/or Glassdoor)? I noticed a local company I follow had fluctuating review counts between 30-45. I wrote a web scraper to see if reviews were being taken down, and for this company, over 20 1 or 2 star reviews have been taken down, but any new 5 star…

It’s worth mentioning that sometimes there are legitimate reasons for removing reviews. Our company had a slew of negative reviews suddenly. Upon closer look, the reviewers were working in positions we had never employed anyone for. They were posting about an office they worked at in Israel (we are in the USA). Turns out there was another startup in Israel who had a very similar name to ours. That company closed a bi…

I understand this to a degree, but it is in no way what is happening with my example.

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#178
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to hijack, but do you or your spouse have an opinion on the WSJ story about companies intensely curating their reviews (maybe even paying/threatening the employees and/or Glassdoor)? I noticed a local company I follow had fluctuating review counts between 30-45. I wrote a web scraper to see if reviews were being taken down, and for this company, over 20 1 or 2 star reviews have been taken down, but any new 5 star…

I can confirm this. I personally know of two companies were accurate but negative reviews were taken down by Glassdoor. One was the company I worked for. In this case it was triggered at the request of the CEO, who was heavily criticized in the reviews. He made HR sign up for a Glassdoor Premium account, so that they took the reviews down. All negative reviews were 100% accurate from my point of view and not insultin…

The company I am referencing is a premium member with a “marked” post (5 stars) at the top of their page.

So, why does Glassdoor apparently listen to CEOs an lawyers when they claim employers cannot have reviews removed, when they appear to be doing just that?

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#179
post #174
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrary to what the GP is saying, Glassdoor seems EXTREMELY resistant unless the review is actually fake and/or contains proprietary information. It's absolutely nothing like Yelp. I do understand that they have their "own" system that automatically reviews posts and removes them. Sadly that hasn't worked out fantastically at my employer, they mostly remove these 5 star reviews.

Another reason why Glassdoor takes down negative reviews is that often the 1 or 2 star reviews don't follow their content guidelines [0]. - [Your review should be truthful and constitute your own personal opinion] -- Any review that contains false information that the company can easily prove is wrong can be removed. - [Each individual is allowed one review, per employer, per year, per review type.] If the company ca…

Great points, and some of the 20 reviews in my anecdotal sample meet this criteria. However most do not break any of these rules, and are simple, factual (as far as I can tell, I dont work there) reviews about why they do not recommend working at this company, yet they are removed - sometimes in as little as 12-24 hours.

Re: 200k people applied for jobs at Amazon in a single week

#180
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of perspective and basic reasoning on this is staggering. > shitty wages, hours, and work environment. A "shitty" wage is better than being unemployed and making 0k. Perhaps not if we were talking about at or near minimum wage. But we're not. We're talking nearly double the median income of the location in question and well beyond the poverty line. If there were really this untapped market of native talent t…

I'm staggered that you accuse me of lack of perspective and basic reasoning, then posted this. Why pretend as if I wasn't talking about a shitty wage relative to the market rate of the skills in question? Most tech workers wouldn't take a $40k job because they realize that's a gross undervaluing of their skillsets. It's a much smarter decision to continue applying and hope somebody recognizes your ability and pays yo…

From your own citation: "Counterfactual simulations based on our model suggest that immigration increased the overall welfare of US natives, and raised workers’ incomes by 0.2% to 0.3%."

So they found that H-1B, etc increased native worker incomes overall.

So they mentioned some distributional issues ... "wages for [high-skilled] US computer scientists would have been 2.6% to 5.1% higher in 2001"

Oh that kind of blows a little bit. But let's put this in perspective. 2.6%-5.1% higher in 2001 would be the difference between 100k and 103-105k. Sure I would love to have had that dough... but this 1) fails to demonstrate a substantial savings to firms 2) completely burns your argument workers making $0k.. they're doing quite fucking well. (100k was close to the average for mid-level software engineers in my neighborhood in 2001). This is not standard of living altering stuff.

And overall the economy did better with immigration.

> Most tech workers wouldn't take a $40k job because they realize that's a gross undervaluing of their skillsets.

What do you define as "undervaluing?" What sets this number? What makes $80k a fair wage vs $40k? Well the ultimate is the market. It is absolutely true that the mere act of bringing in more labor via H-1B will lower wages. I will not dispute that, that's basic microecon.

But how do you determine what your "labor is worth?" Because your labor is worth whatever that market price is, there is no "hope" to it. If a population is refusing to work for offers of $40k, because that "undervalues" their skills then that implies that the market has jobs that are correctly greater valued. If this were not the case then these people should just stop and take the $40k job, why continue applying for something that doesn't exist?

Of course not everything is smooth. The lag in filling these positions is what contributes to frictional unemployment. This is a good chunk of what makes up the unemployment figures. The fact remains, and what you just ignored... the unemployment rate in all industries, but especially IT and most engineering disciplines is the lowest it has been in years.

The Disney issue ultimately displaced not much more than 100 workers which is less than 0.2% of their tech and IT workforce, if that is the worst of the "bad news", it doesn't diminish my point.

Again, there is no disputing that a foreign worker program will lower certain wages in the short-term, possibly longer. There is plenty of evidence that this has not affected employment on higher skilled jobs.

The other weird thing that is always mentioned by H-1B foes is how shitty these Indian workers with no experience are (it was mentioned multiple times in the article you linked). So how does that square? If these workers are truly that crap, then why would anyone be surprised that Disney or anyone would want to get rid of expensive workers that can be replaced by these crap workers. Why should Disney or anyone pay top dollar for someone that can be replaced with the human equivalent of a shell script. If these crap workers really don't work out (and yes this has happened), well then the market isn't really harmed then is it?

What about automation and consolidation of services. Both have had tremendous effects on the IT industry. There were well paying jobs for "Computer Operators" a few short years ago.. now there are literally a handful and they pay barely above minimum wage. The influx of H-1B holders had little to do with this.

Finally, I'm not going to argue this, this is just a question: What do you feel gives you more entitlement to a job that an immigrant will willingly bring themselves over here and do for less?

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