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Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

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Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#171

Post by kapilkaisare »

metageek wrote: post #165
kapilkaisare wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying to fit this in with what I've seen in college and at work. I attended computer engineering college in India, and here it gets extremely competitive. You've got gazillions of students fighting over a college seat not because they love programming or because they love software, but because being a computer engineer is key to financial success. So, they slog over their grade 12 scores and IIT-JEEs and CETs,…

> Once they get into college, it's all about getting 'distinctions' - grades higher than 66%. 66% correct, or 66th percentile? At every school I went to, 66% correct would be a failing grade.

66% correct.

And if you can get that consistently at the University of Pune, Bob's your uncle and the universe is your oyster.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#172

Post by noname123 »

sown wrote: post #78
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more. In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the fam…

This.

If I went back in time or have an opportunity to tell a kid like me growing up, I'd tell him that don't look at all of the kids who are jumping through the hoops for parents or for the Asian sub-culture. If you do your own thing, you'll be the envy of everybody else who is secretly insecure to buy into the crap.

Kinda of like in a night-club/bar, 99% of people there only hang out with people they came with; but everyone envy that one guy who came by himself to strike up conversation with strangers and don't give up a fuck about other people think.

PS: I second and confirm also the phenomenon on the East Coast. Some people who went to MIT or CMU, have resumes that Chinese mothers could only dream about, work at the same place I do along with people who went to state/community college, writing enterprise shitty code.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#173

Post by bane »

randrews wrote: post #150
klenwell wrote: post #17

A friend of mine, a mother of a gifted 5th grader wrestling with similar issues of parental control as Amy Chua, shared the WSJ article with me today. It reminded me of something Steven Pinker writes about in one of his books. In his book, he breaks down the work of Judith Rich Harris ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Rich_Harris ) to this formula: Genes have 50% influence over a child's development, peers 40%-50…

That's a lot like how abuse works: cut off from any social reality outside the abuser's, you come to think you deserve it; being abused becomes normal. Reading that WSJ article made me angry, because it's obvious that's what she's trying to do. She wants something from her daughter (probably doesn't even herself know what), is abusing her until she gets it, and cutting her daughter off from any outside support so she…

One of my friends (who happens to be Chinese and was raised in a home like this) remarked, "but look at the kids! See their smiles? It can't possibly be abuse!"

I replied, "have you ever seen pictures of the smiling performers in a North Korea propaganda play?" Of course they are smiling.

1) They don't know anything else, so when they do things that bring them positive reinforcement, they show happiness (most people prefer to be happy than sad, so they work for those goals)

2) If they showed unhappiness, it would probably be considered a bad attitude and pushed into a feedback loop of negative reinforcement, wanting to stay out of that loop can make many people smile...habitually

Evidence: There are dozens of videos on youtube showing North Korean children playing virtuoso Guitar or Xylophone or whatever smiling their fool heads off. And there's not really a way for anybody to claim they have a fantastic, fulfilled and successful life.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#175

Post by msluyter »

p_nathan wrote: post #153
nocman wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to know more specifically the choice of acceptable instruments. My observation is that the choices of piano and violin are not limited to Asian families (at least, not in the US). There seems to be a link between people who wish to foster academic excellence in their children, and the choice to have them play piano and/or violin. I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any insights as to why those parti…

Piano has assorted benefits, sure. But I'm not convinced that it's worth making a major investment into unless you're focused on being a professional musician.

To this I would add: if you want to be a good musician, generally, learning piano is very helpful. You'll absorb a lot of music theory (harmony) by osmosis. I found that quite helpful in my music theory and ear training courses in college. Beyond that, it's harmonically richer and more fun to play alone than a single line melody instrument, IMHO. (I say that as a former flutist who still plays the piano.)

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#176

Post by p90x »

dheerosaur wrote: post #55

I came across http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan when I was reading about Japan on Wikipedia. It led me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame_society which says that the high suicide rate may be attributed to the societal structure. These societies set high standards for individuals and that may result in high performance from the society but, at the same time, may depress under-achievers to such an extent…

I've heard people bring up the argument of suicides when this subject comes up before. But I don't think it is a valid point because you are cherry picking statistics.

If you want to make a more fair comparison you would need to look at a variety of factors to get a overall picture.

Would it be fair for an Asian to look at the USA and pick something like school shootings ( or drug use, or criminality, or teen pregnancy - which ever stat makes the USA look worse) to attack the entire American style of parenting? Obviously it wouldn't be.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#177

Post by [deleted] »

sown wrote: post #78
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

I was raised like this. My mom showed me no real love, nor did my family. I buckled under the pressure and when the time came for any real emotional support, they abandoned me in an attempt to get me to "try harder." I never forgave them and I don't talk to them any more. In the end, regardless of how they felt or their intentions, I was made out to be nothing more than an ornament, a product for the glory of the fam…

[deleted]

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#178

Post by Quarrelsome »

I've met people that were raised like that and they're broken.

They lack the volition to do things by themselves and are unable to make their own choices. I used to converse a lot with a girl brought up in this manner and if you asked the question: "why" a lot about the things she did or was about to do (like planning to go to a particular college) you would ultimately end up with: "I don't know".

Also I would bet that those kids are bullied to at least some extent at school. They would have been at mine at least. :D

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#179

Post by didip »

I was raised like this as well and surrounded by Asian parents who do this. I see a few of my Asian peers, as young parents, exercising the totalitarian technique as well.

I supposed, in the end, my dad did it. I accomplished all his goals at relatively young age. But that comes with a huge cost. I never see him as a loving caring dad. He is always the target to beat. Sucks to be him now, old and alone.

This article and other Asians who follow Amy Chua's style of parenting rarely see this one perspective:

The oppressive technique is cargo-culted to death among Asian parents. It is used by Asian parents who themselves, are not successful like some sort of miracle drugs.

This technique only works IF the parents themselves are successful. If the parents are lazy, glutton, and messy, there is no way this technique will make the kids dapper and discipline.

For those of you who suffer/ed Asian parents oppression, there's always the satirical: http://highexpectationsasianfather.tumblr.com

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#180

Post by izendejas »

zppx wrote: post #129
izendejas wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use your line of reasoning, let's take another anomaly: Steve Jobs. The dude was adopted, was a community college dropout and did a ton of drugs. He woke up one day at 42 and found himself back at the CEO position of the company he co-founded and now he's considered by many the most successful CEO of our time. His company has a market cap of $300 billion+ and has created a whole lot of other intangibles by surroun…

NeXT and Pixar in the middle, hardly just waking up.

Read the literal sense of the phrase.
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