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Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

jeanhsu.com

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Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#101

Post by lionhearted »

mcantelon wrote: post #87
lionhearted wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hate to say it, Sebastian, but this whole comment seems built on the back of a false dichotomy. You don't either berate your kids and force them to toil for years at something they hate OR they turn into listless, lifeless middle managers who just fart along. C'mon Ryan, the whole discussion is littered with anecdotes, and I made another one. Obviously I don't think those are the only possible outcomes... but I do…

>Sometimes the main reasons said out loud - "well, I just want to be happy" - seem to mask other darker reasons, like fear of failure or inertia or feeling ill-equipped to make a difference. Sometimes obsession with external validation masks the same things. There are no easy answers as to what is best for any given human, but there's definitely a market for those looking for the kind of easy answers that Amy Chua is…

You know cantelon, I'm going to think twice next time before I take up a position that the people who agree are quiet, and the people who disagree are loud. I put my perspective and reasoning up as impersonally as possible, and people are voting up someone who blames everyone else for their problems, saying he hates me and "fuck you"? It's... I dunno man, there's been some good discussion but I'm incredibly disappointed with some people just empathy-voting up raw hostility. I'll answer this though -

> Sometimes obsession with external validation masks the same things.

Y'know, I don't care about someone's motives if they're conducting themselves well... if someone gives to charity out of a desire to glorify themselves, that's totally okay in my book. Likewise, someone who invents just to have their name on an invention or innovation. A lot of great scientists, inventors, philanthropists, builders, and people who did good things really liked seeing their name in print. So be it, if they're doing good things.

> There are no easy answers as to what is best for any given human, but there's definitely a market for those looking for the kind of easy answers that Amy Chua is selling.

Indeed... or like the everyone is a unique snowflake craze, eh? There aren't easy answers. I dunno man, I come in here to share an alternative point of view. There's some good feedback/disagreement, but I'm a little surprised and let down by people giving the nod to really personal nasty hostility.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#102

Post by nocman »

p_nathan wrote: post #70

Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…

I'd like to know more specifically the choice of acceptable instruments. My observation is that the choices of piano and violin are not limited to Asian families (at least, not in the US). There seems to be a link between people who wish to foster academic excellence in their children, and the choice to have them play piano and/or violin. I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any insights as to why those particular instruments are chosen, and I'd be even more interested to know why other instruments would be strictly excluded (whether by Asian parents or those of other heritage).

Personally, I think it is a good idea to have kids learn piano for at least a couple of reasons. First, I think the visual layout of a piano can help attach a physical understanding to the concept of intervals and chords (specifically the distance between notes, and the clustering of notes in specific patterns to form chords). For me personally, I think that was a benefit, even though I play piano very little, and not very well. Secondly, I don't recall ever meeting an adult who took lessons as a child for any length of time (and then quit) who as an adult does not wish they had continued. Now surely there will be at least 7 people on HN who will now speak up, inform me that they hated lessons as a child, happily quit when they were able and never regretted it for a second. But unless my memory is failing me, that must mean we've never met (or at least we've never discussed piano lessons), and thus my statement still stands :-D To that I will add, that even with a number of "I quit and I'm glad" entries, I still think the majority of the adults in question wish they hadn't quit.

Oh, and a third reason to play piano: they make nice weighted, touch-sensitive keybords now that do a pretty decent job of mimicking the feel of a real piano (at least close enough for me), and you can move them from room to room and house to house by yourself. (You won't have to get 3 to 5 of your soon to be ex-best friends to help you). We sold our old upright piano about 3 moves ago, and I've been celebrating the sale ever since :-D

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#104

Post by mnutt »

bluekeybox wrote: post #69
felipe wrote: post #53

I am a western (Brazilian-American) living in China. All this drilling and tests may sound crazy, but I do think it teaches an important value that is missing in the west's education: discipline My wife is a teacher. She taught kids in the US (California) and here in China. One difference is that in the US a huge amount of her preparation time is spent on making lessons interesting to students, otherwise they disconn…

> in the US a huge amount of her preparation time is spent on making lessons interesting to students, otherwise they disconnect. In China she is more focused on the lesson's subject matter, rather than tweaking the lesson for entertainment / attention value. I came to the U.S. from Eastern Europe and went to a U.S. college. The introductory science textbooks were all guilty of this. The biology textbooks especially w…

This reminds me of Why The Lucky Stiff's response to a critique of Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080526055424/redhanded.hobix.co...

"The problem here is: the author of the article is trying to do academics, to gain knowledge, to build a career. And my cartoons and stories have patronized him, belittled him, by treating him as if he wasn’t a real professional. This is a terrible breach of conduct. He has accolades innumerable. He has done no small deed. His peers are all gathered around him, wishing him the best and swelling with nothing but respect and esteem for him. NOW WHAT IS THIS CARTOON BOOK DOING HERE??"

On a more serious note, it sounds like you were just above the level of material that the textbooks were trying to teach, or maybe the format just didn't work for you. But why shouldn't learning be fun?

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#105

Post by qiqiyan »

Does it occur to anyone that the eastern/western parenting styles can be easily mixed?

When it comes to things like being honest, making good use of time, never give up easily, commitment to hard work, it doesn't hurt to exercise the eastern parenting style to force the kids to form these habits. The kids will thank you later.

When it comes to what the kids should do as hobby/career, the kids should be given a lot of freedom, as one can only do well in stuff that he/she's truly passionate about.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#106

Post by jmtulloss »

izendejas wrote: post #79
lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

To use your line of reasoning, let's take another anomaly: Steve Jobs. The dude was adopted, was a community college dropout and did a ton of drugs. He woke up one day at 42 and found himself back at the CEO position of the company he co-founded and now he's considered by many the most successful CEO of our time. His company has a market cap of $300 billion+ and has created a whole lot of other intangibles by surroun…

He just "woke up one day"?

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#107

Post by Dove »

lionhearted wrote: post #46

A contrary viewpoint: After studying a number of different cultures and backgrounds and histories, I'm generally an admirer of the school of parenting laid out by Chua. Well, I think some of the more insulting/demeaning/negative-reinforcement isn't so great, but the overall focus on achievement and duty as superior to having fun... I do respect that. I'll explain why - I used to think the opposite until I read Andre…

On the other hand, Erik Demaine was homeschooled by a father whose educational philosophy consisted of "the child should pursue his own interests." [1] His furious creativity represents a kind of academic achievement that cannot result from mere drill.

[1] http://www.famoushomeschoolers.net/bio_demaine.html -- Yeah, I know it's an odd site. Early google result, matches what I remember of his story.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#108

Post by varjag »

p_nathan wrote: post #70

Regarding the WSJ essay - my perspective is that what Chua's kids are going through is barbaric and will not generate well-educated, Renaissance-esque people. There is tremendous value in learning and discipline, and my observation of American schools makes me think that American schools are pretty weaksauce in the discipline and focus department. I don't think anyone out there denies that. To pick at a particular ex…

Perhaps that explains why despite the armies of children drilled to play instruments, the Asian music and pop scene remains so atrociously bad.

Re: Why Chinese Mothers are Not Superior (from a female Chinese engineer)

#109

Post by tastybites »

codexon wrote: post #98
tastybites wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are they supposed to do when they are beaten and locked out of the house for 24 hours with no food to eat? Is this a serious question? If that happens, you call the cops like the victim of any other kind of assault. I have a friend who did this and had dad arrested and taken to court. It worked phenomenally well - she was never beat ever again - wonder why?! > Both of which presumably do not have a background…

If that happens, you call the cops like the victim of any other kind of assault. Like any other assault, you need proof that abuse actually happened and you just didn't slip and fall. And how is a 8 year old kid supposed to know? Also what about the threats to bring them to China, free to beat them as much as they like, if they told the police? (And yes all this actually happened). That's my point. Having an Asian si…

> Maybe that's true to a small extent, but the statistics from Okcupid shows that skin color is a much greater factor.

Dude, you are confusing the effect for the cause.

LOL I don't even know if they have a name for that kind of logical fallacy.

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