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Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

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Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#171

Post by nickpinkston »

repolfx wrote: post #155
nickpinkston wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe make them work on open source projects? Or even the college's own toy systems?

The problem is then their grade ends up being heavily affected by the quality of work done by other people. It'd be impossible to objectively grade such a task. The key difference between university and work is that in the former you are supposed to receive a pretty fine-grained assessment of your own skill , which is isolated and repeatable. In work, it's understood that promotion and slotting is a much more arbitra…

Maybe it's less about the quality of your code for this and more about how you do on: estimating your time, hitting your schedule, collaborating metrics (response time, ticket closing, etc.)?

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#172

Post by HillaryBriss »

Nasrudith wrote: post #154
HillaryBriss wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe startups should focus on filtering for any reasonably competent person who will actually stick around until the company succeeds or dies

The competence is their half and the only bit of filtering - them sticking around is "yours" (the start ups) as you set the environment, pay, and benefits.

I don't know how big the percentages are but a worker's decision to stick around is a function not only of environment, pay and benefits. It's also a function of the worker's level of interest in the company's subject domain, individual desire for continuity, risk aversion, etc.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#173

Post by donw »

roenxi wrote: post #140
donw wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Candidly, I would say that college does not even provide the base skill-set. In the Real World(tm) of building software, you will work on systems built over years by other people, many of which have long since left the project or company. The level of integration tests, unit tests, documentation, and automation will depend entirely on the culture of the organization. Databases, low-level I/O, sorting operations, and…

Theoretically, is this not all intentional? There is little point trying to teach work-related skills in a non-work-related environment. If I wanted to teach a bunch of kids how to work, the university system would not be a good starting point. It is the blind leading the blind, there are potentially literally thousands of people with at best limited work experience all crammed in together. That is not a sane environ…

> University is supposed to provide networking opportunities, cross-pollinate interesting theoretical ideas that have limited practical application and provide a feeder ramp into the research community. If universities try to teach employable skills it will be hugely inefficient compared to teaching people skills in entry level jobs.

Not to sound flippant, but if this is the case, why do we bother requiring a university degree for really any job?

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#174

Post by shagie »

slothtrop wrote: post #161
shagie wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should. Often, they aren't. There are a number of reasons there - some don't have the time. > Because startups need to bring their products to market quickly, applications are built iteratively, with rapid prototyping. The timing of the product release is crucial because it has a direct impact on acquiring customers and affects the bottom line. Significant delays can put a company out of business. While time to…

Concede that time may be a factor, in which case, companies have little choice but to shell out real money. > mentoring is a lost ROI in many cases. What investment? Grads are cheap, and time to productivity as I argued isn't that long, before which they aren't merely learning. Most of the investment here is on the worker's part, and greener pastures aren't available as quickly as productivity sets in. If you're fres…

Investment of time by other developers who could be working on the features.

This isn't saying that mentoring can't be a positive ROI - just that the person needs to stay long enough.

> If you're fresh out of school and working, leaving a company is unthinkable in the first year, unlikely in the 2nd.

You should check out reddit /r/cscareerquestions and consider how many people advocate leaving under a year.

I will also note that for my own experience, while there are some developers who stay for a long time, there are more than a few that start and leave within a year.

In trying to get two developers that would stay on, we went through six developers. Four of which left within a year. This is for public sector and the lack monetary compensation shouldn't be a surprise to anyone... still, had four developers that we trained up and left.

The investment of time in getting them to that point where they could be useful contributors if they had stayed was more than what it would have taken the developers who mentored them to just do those tasks and not have hired anyone.

That doesn't touch on the actual pay and paperwork to hire someone.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#176

Post by repolfx »

nickpinkston wrote: post #171
repolfx wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is then their grade ends up being heavily affected by the quality of work done by other people. It'd be impossible to objectively grade such a task. The key difference between university and work is that in the former you are supposed to receive a pretty fine-grained assessment of your own skill , which is isolated and repeatable. In work, it's understood that promotion and slotting is a much more arbitra…

Maybe it's less about the quality of your code for this and more about how you do on: estimating your time, hitting your schedule, collaborating metrics (response time, ticket closing, etc.)?

By those metrics many of the industry's top companies and engineers would get a fail grade.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#177

Post by slothtrop »

shagie wrote: post #174
slothtrop wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concede that time may be a factor, in which case, companies have little choice but to shell out real money. > mentoring is a lost ROI in many cases. What investment? Grads are cheap, and time to productivity as I argued isn't that long, before which they aren't merely learning. Most of the investment here is on the worker's part, and greener pastures aren't available as quickly as productivity sets in. If you're fres…

Investment of time by other developers who could be working on the features. This isn't saying that mentoring can't be a positive ROI - just that the person needs to stay long enough. > If you're fresh out of school and working, leaving a company is unthinkable in the first year, unlikely in the 2nd. You should check out reddit /r/cscareerquestions and consider how many people advocate leaving under a year. I will al…

So management decided it's cheaper to keep compensation low and have a revolving door of developers than try to retain them, or is it merely short-sightedness?

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#178

Post by shagie »

slothtrop wrote: post #177
shagie wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investment of time by other developers who could be working on the features. This isn't saying that mentoring can't be a positive ROI - just that the person needs to stay long enough. > If you're fresh out of school and working, leaving a company is unthinkable in the first year, unlikely in the 2nd. You should check out reddit /r/cscareerquestions and consider how many people advocate leaving under a year. I will al…

So management decided it's cheaper to keep compensation low and have a revolving door of developers than try to retain them, or is it merely short-sightedness?

In the public sector, management has very little they can do about raises. Raises are an act of legislature or the governor. The number of people at each level within a bureau is likewise an act of legislature or governor.

Likewise, the pay isn't anything hidden either. This number is well known https://projects.jsonline.com/database/2019/4/Wisconsin-stat... (much of the technology side gets classified as IS SYSTMS DEVMNT SVCS ...). Compare those numbers to the averages for the area https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=Madison-WI/Sal...

People applying and taking the job know exactly what they are getting and going to get for compensation and benefits. Pay is a bit on the lower side, vacation is on the higher side, the pension is fully funded (actually at 102.9%).

Thus the ability to juggle things to retain a person is very limited - especially when that person hasn't been there for a full year.

Consider then, that the person is accepting the job, knowing that this is the public sector, knowing the wage history, and looking for another job elsewhere (many have left to move out west). It is not exactly practical for state government to try to match west coast compensation.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#179

Post by slothtrop »

shagie wrote: post #178
slothtrop wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So management decided it's cheaper to keep compensation low and have a revolving door of developers than try to retain them, or is it merely short-sightedness?

In the public sector, management has very little they can do about raises. Raises are an act of legislature or the governor. The number of people at each level within a bureau is likewise an act of legislature or governor. Likewise, the pay isn't anything hidden either. This number is well known https://projects.jsonline.com/database/2019/4/Wisconsin-stat... (much of the technology side gets classified as IS SYSTMS D…

> It is not exactly practical for state government to try to match west coast compensation.

It isn't, though there may be a sharp difference in cost of living and that's a strong consideration with wages. That, and a pension and benefits is taken for granted by younger people. Besides govt positions tending to be less exciting, you can really put some money away. Moving up, though, is a sluggish process.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#180

Post by jbn »

ericd wrote: post #20
hildaman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this. A good Computer Science program must have enough software development curriculum that people actually learn to write code.

MIT's was (is?) heavy on theory, light on coding practice. I still think it was a pretty good program, they just expected that you'd learn to program outside of class.

YMMV, but 6.172 (https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-compu...) doesn't seem light on coding to me (full disclosure: I have been one of the MITPOSSE for this class for multiple years).
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