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Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

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Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#81

Post by gowld »

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #56
sigstoat wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most major schools offer degrees called Software Engineering. name three.

Iowa State University: http://catalog.iastate.edu/collegeofengineering/softwareengi... UC Irvine: https://www.informatics.uci.edu/undergrad/bs-software-engine... Penn State: https://behrend.psu.edu/school-of-engineering/academic-progr... Those three schools are > 30k students each.

ABET lists 32 accredding software engineering programs

http://main.abet.org/aps/Accreditedprogramsearch.aspx

(UCI doesn't appear to be one of them.)

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#82

Post by ericd »

ghaff wrote: post #32
ericd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIT's was (is?) heavy on theory, light on coding practice. I still think it was a pretty good program, they just expected that you'd learn to program outside of class.

I took the 6.001 edX courses a while back. Introduction to Computer Science and Programming in Python--actually broken in 2 parts for edX. Yeah, it came across to me that the expectation was that you'd learn to program mostly outside of the course. Or, really, that you already had a reasonable grasp on the basic concepts. Otherwise I think that course would feel to most people like being tossed into the deep end of t…

Yeah, that was a pretty common feeling in 6.001, especially among those who hadn't done much programming in high school. At the time, it was taught in Scheme (a Lisp), which no one I knew taking it had any experience in, so everyone was on sort of equal footing there, at least. And more generally, it seemed to be a pretty common approach there to throw students into the deep end and let them figure it out - people liked to compare the experience to trying to drink from a firehose :-D. I'm not sure if it's optimal for learning the material itself, but it does make jumping into new subjects seem less daunting after you've gone through that a few times.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#83

Post by cameronbrown »

cle wrote: post #59
cameronbrown wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The questions FAANG ask should not be the questions a startup asks... FAANG have to deal with measuring candidates at huge scale, and have literally too much talent coming through the door. A hiring decision in a startup can be a series of life or death decisions. I think algorithms questions are an OK litmus test for being able to program, but it shouldn't be everything or even 1/4 of an interview at a small company…

> FAANG...have literally too much talent coming through the door From first hand experience, I would strongly disagree... I won't beat the dead horse of the sad state of tech interviews, but just wanted to point out that this statement does not align with my experience at all.

I'm more referring to quantity than quality. At that scale it's better to optimise for a lower false positive rate because your business isn't going to collapse if you miss a decent candidate.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#84

Post by digsy »

mr_tristan wrote: post #70
mreome wrote: post #27

Isn't this just observing the fact that college isn't the same as work experience, and only provides the base skill-set needed to enter enter the industry? "When you join a startup, there’s a lot of emphasis on the design of the application, reusability and clean code, and the ability to conduct and undergo code reviews, as well as the ability to think of and build systems that can scale based on users and geography"…

I'm not sure why some think that a university degree should mean you're ready to be an effective professional engineer from day 1, let alone year 3. I swear this is another facet of agism: some think that the 22 year old with a 4 year degree is nearly as valuable as the 40 year old professional, just needs some language experience and wham! Ready to go!

>I'm not sure why some think that a university degree should mean you're ready to be an effective professional engineer from day 1, let alone year 3.

Maybe its an excuse and the companies who say that just dont want to pay for training.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#85

Post by bradlys »

uncletaco wrote: post #34
geebee wrote: post #10

Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…

At what point is a company no longer a startup and just a small business looking for talent? I ask because my view of a startup that isn’t a unicorn worth millions within its first few years (where rapid growth will encourage a hiring spree) is its usually a handful people and some office space. Are typical start ups really doing whiteboard interviews during their early stages? I expect white boarding from a company…

> At what point is a company no longer a startup and just a small business looking for talent?

I'd say when it stops accepting funding and determines it wants to stay as a small business. But that's probably a bit rare for companies that have taken on significant funding. After all, if I'm an investor I'd like my money multiplied (>1, thanks).

> Are typical start ups really doing whiteboard interviews during their early stages?

It varies a lot on the startup and the founders. Some founders don't have a large network of engineers (or - rather - engineers who would like to work at a startup for startup compensation; this is especially true with very early startups). You'll eventually have to hire from outside because your network will run out.

I've been hired as an early engineer at a seed stage startup. (Would not recommend) I've interviewed at dozens and dozens of startups in SV all across the funding range. Many of the ones I interviewed with did ask typical whiteboarding questions that you'd find at FAANG. After all, many come from FAANG and don't know any other way to interview. Or they try to imitate "the best".

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#86

Post by halis »

Yeah they lack programming skills. Because they've been going to school, not programming for a living.

But they can Google. They can study for interviews that quiz you on computer science trivia.

The interview process on the coasts is broken. In the midwest I don't have to deal with that shit.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#87

Post by adjkant »

What's funny to me about all of these comments is that practically focused CS programs can hit the best of both worlds. There's a reason there's a direct Waterloo to Google pipeline beyond just the 4/4/4 timing. Co-op programs and practically focused programs work great for building that industry know how in a meaningful way while still getting the core CS taught better than you'd get at most if not all bootcamps.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#88

Post by HillaryBriss »

mreome wrote: post #27

Isn't this just observing the fact that college isn't the same as work experience, and only provides the base skill-set needed to enter enter the industry? "When you join a startup, there’s a lot of emphasis on the design of the application, reusability and clean code, and the ability to conduct and undergo code reviews, as well as the ability to think of and build systems that can scale based on users and geography"…

> You should expect to train and mentor ...

I've always thought so too. But it doesn't seem like any companies really buy into this any more.

Re: Software Engineering Grads Lack the Skills Startups Need

#89

Post by HillaryBriss »

cameronbrown wrote: post #30
geebee wrote: post #10

Really? Cause it seems, based on my interviews, startups couldn't care less about my background in leading customers through beta demos, collaborating with scientists, participating in sales presentations and outreach, writing documentation, or any of the issues described here. They do seem awful interested in whether I can find all matching subtrees in a binary tree, though. Which, now that I think about, is the one…

The questions FAANG ask should not be the questions a startup asks... FAANG have to deal with measuring candidates at huge scale, and have literally too much talent coming through the door. A hiring decision in a startup can be a series of life or death decisions. I think algorithms questions are an OK litmus test for being able to program, but it shouldn't be everything or even 1/4 of an interview at a small company…

maybe startups should focus on filtering for any reasonably competent person who will actually stick around until the company succeeds or dies
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