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Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

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Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#171

Post by disordinary »

ThJ wrote: post #59
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

I'm from Norway. The backside of the medal when it comes to welfare services of that kind is the rather humiliating process you have to go through to actually get them. I've heard many stories about this. Yes, you'll get help if you do as they say, but it can feel very invasive at times. Some clueless bureaucrat will need to know about your finances and all your medical issues, and if it's not a clear-cut case, these…

Here in New Zealand you don't get asked any questions about finances or being able to afford it but if it's elective and not urgent you'll be prioritised behind those who need the healthcare urgently. No bureaucrats involved (unless it's very specialised care like experimental medication or the need to send someone overseas) just the doctors and specialists.

Public healthcare isn't the same in every country.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#172

Post by throw0101a »

boromisp wrote: post #71
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0], or in the belief that we live in a meritocracy. It is simply a foundational part of many people's worldview and nothing sort of experiencing similar traumas will make them reconsider. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

> A possible explanation for what you've experienced can be found in the just-world hypothesis [0]

As a sub-class of that, see also the Prosperity Gospel:

> Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, or seed faith)[A] is a controversial religious belief among some Protestant Christians, who hold that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

The Book of Job of course is a good counter-example:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ip4Jx92F94

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#173

Post by vidarh »

maehwasu wrote: post #94
raverbashing wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Backside" All of this sounds like just regular checks to prevent abuse of the system "Humiliating"? Maybe, but that's their job. No I don't think it could be much different. Of course it's not an utopia, but I've heard much worse from countries much less well off than the US. I don't think any country does that much better than Norway tbh

Agree—it’s perfectly reasonable for them to do this, and likely the only way the system could function at good cost and without abuse. However, the problem in an American context is that people would likely see this as invasive. They’d demand the free treatment without the privacy invasions needed to make it work. To be clear, I think the tradeoff is absolutely worth it, but America’s track record in making reasonabl…

This used to be a problem in Norway too. People going without services they were entitled to because it was seen as humiliating to ask was a real thing. The only way of getting rid of that is to actually offer the services and point out that it is a choice: You don't have to go through it, but then you don't get the money.

I generally think that a lot of the more invasive checks are not justified, but if the price to pay to get agreement for more expansive welfare services is an invasive means testing process, then it's certainly better than not having the services.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#174

Post by Sharlin »

mgkimsal wrote: post #168
Sharlin wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh puh-lease. Even a trivial googling tells me that Canada has longer waiting times than most other comparable countries with single-payer healthcare. And those waiting times? About half of GP visits are same- or next day appointments, with 20% of Canadians having to wait for a week. As for specialists, the median waiting time is roughly four weeks. [1] So those numbers are definitely not optimal compared to many oth…

I may not understand what's being got at with this 'Canadian wait time' issue. I've needed to go see my doctor - usually I can't get a same day appointment. Sometimes I can get a 'next day' - usually it's "pick some time in the next week or two". Am I now "having to wait"? It's been this way for me my entire life in the US (more than 40 years I can remember), across different states, political leadership and insuranc…

Well, I guess that's why you need to creatively misinterpret the statistics in order to make the argument "Canadian wait times long -> single-payer systems baaaaad". Never mind the other logical fallacies in said argument.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#176

Post by spiderkeeper »

CalRobert wrote: post #117
hestipod wrote: post #33

I was disabled by bad surgery and lost my career. No system that ostensibly should have helped, did. Denied. Denied. Denied. YEARS of adversarial, not default helpful, meetings and challenges and interviews. I saw people worse than me refused help. I saw real time as people who knew me for years or life, who respected me and my career choice helping others, decided I was a lazy mooch who wasn't trying hard enough, wa…

"get out of you don't like it" Nobody saying this has actually researched it. Too many people in the states are under the impression you can just up and move to a European country, no problem. One friendly-but-clueless acquaintance got flown back from Heathrow for asking the immigration officer about where to find jobs when she landed. If you don't/can't: * work in tech or medicine * go to university in Europe in a h…

The people saying this aren’t saying it in good faith. They are saying it because they are racist.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#177

Post by AdrianB1 »

michaelmrose wrote: post #88
hcurtiss wrote: post #41

Are we sure that half the median is a good definition of “poor”? At least hypothetically, in a very wealthy country, that may still be an adequate amount to get by.

The median individual monthly income in WA state is slightly above 4K monthly. Half of this is 2K monthly or more accurately given how most people actually get paid 923 every 2 weeks. After taxes this is more like 784. After paying for insurance as you are too rich to get free health care you are looking at more like 684. This qualifies you to live virtually nowhere because most places want you to make 3x the rent an…

Housing as an investment is the problem here. The cost of the houses and the cost of the rent are adjusting to the income, if you double the income in the region you will have triple the rent (because the disposable income will increase much more than the actual income increase). See Silicon Valley for a good demonstration of this.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#178

Post by disordinary »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #167
EdSharkey wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Democrats (or Republicans when they take power) are clever/smart/kind/honest enough to offer universal single-payer healthcare without rationing. Is there an intent to take my health care choices away, and is that intent benevolent or malicious? You paint a very abstractly wonderful picture, so let's assume yes and benevolent if rationing is to be expected given the finite tax base. I still need more de…

check out Australia's healthcare system as a middle ground then. I've lived in the UK (free, single-payer, government-run) and Australia's, and I prefer Australia's because it has a mix of both government and market. The basic principle is that the Australian Federal Government subsidises healthcare by a fixed amount for each procedure. So iirc, it was AUD$45 for a visit to the GP. That's enough for some GP practices…

The NZ system is similar. GPs are subsidised (your primary health provider) but hospitals are run by the government and are free. The unfortunate thing is you have to go through the GP to get a referral to the Hospital (unless you go into A&E).

The other interesting system that NZ has is something called ACC which also pays for rehabilitation and loss of income when someone has an accident. If you are paralysed and can no longer work then ACC will pay you something like 80% of your income until you manage to find another job. That could be for the rest of your life.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#179

Post by AdrianB1 »

Sophistifunk wrote: post #53

It doesn't matter who's fault it is. What matters is "can we afford to help these people?" and for a lot of definitions of "help" we can, and most people think we should.

How about the question: "should we force everyone to help these people?" I don't think you are talking about charity in any of the "help" definitions.

Re: Stop Blaming America’s Poor for Their Poverty

#180

Post by habnds »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #159
habnds wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the just-world fallacy is a much more appropriate term. > the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person

the whole "prosperity" thing in modern US christianity associates with this: that if you're a good christian then god will make you wealthy. So therefore poor people are by definition unworthy, and wealthy people deserve their wealth. Note that this is in exact opposition to the wealth-heaven-camel-needle teaching in the bible. But that doesn't seem to matter. I'm sure there are interpretations that can make it go aw…

for real, in addition, there's interesting research looking at how, punishing and exiling groups of people alters society's relationship with that group.

Stuff like harrassment, arrest, and enforcement actions against a specific group of people isn't the _result_ of prejudice, its frequenty the _cause_ of prejudice due to the just-cause fallacy.

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