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Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

nytimes.com

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Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#171

Post by icelancer »

js2 wrote: post #154
rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

> In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed So then the CEO had to know this behavior was occurring. Did the CEO and management attempt to do anything about it or did they just maintain plausible deniability, knowing that not having a guilty mind was sufficient to prevent management from being liable? If the NYT, an external organization, was able to uncover this behavior, why couldn't Walmart have had i…

>> So then the CEO had to know this behavior was occurring.

Why does this naturally follow?

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#172

Post by Consultant32452 »

yborg wrote: post #125
shkkmo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you want to fine Walmart for doing things the "Brazilian way" Is this "Brazilian way" legal in Brazil? If so, there is a decent chance that it is allowed under the FCPA.

There are a number of court cases currently in Brazil that suggest that the "Brazilian Way" is not in fact in accord with Brazilian law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash Parent may argue that Brazilians themselves are thereby insensitive to the "Brazilian way" and should be educated by US corporations as to the social values they should hold.

On the contrary. If Brazil doesn't think this is the way things should be done, Brazil should fine, arrest, or whatever is relevant to Brazilian custom and law. If the US government wants to report to Brazilian government some findings of wrongdoing, then so be it. But it doesn't make sense for the US to fine a US corporation for the wrongdoings of a Brazilian committing a crime in Brazil.

And let's not pretend that there's no difference between the letter of the law and the cultural norm. Selective enforcement of laws that are out of sync with cultural norms couldn't be more common. There are places in the world where low level corruption is so common that tourists are recommended to carry some cash to pay off police or other grifters so that the tourist can avoid pretty awful consequences when they're totally innocent. Should the US fine those tourists? It doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#173

Post by pmiller2 »

rectang wrote: post #120
zaroth wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies (even purely algorithmic ones) are not amoral because they are directly impacted by the ethical and unethical behaviors that they choose. So they are not “unconcerned” with the morality of their actions. Versus for example “technology” which is amoral, because it is itself a tool unaware of the purpose for which it is even being used. Of course companies are also not immortal, companies “die” all the time.…

Companies are profit-seeking automatons. They evolve and change in response to their environment, but as entities they are not encumbered by human moral impulses or other embarrassments. Humans operating within companies may experience moral impulses, but the company as an entity constantly urges its humans to act amorally in service of its profit-seeking.

Financial paperclip maximizers, you might say.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#174

Post by pmiller2 »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #107
pmiller2 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the problem: we’re not doing that.

Per the friendly article, Walmart has spent over $1 billion total on this (fine, legal fees, investigation), which is a noticeable number even by megacorp standards.

Legal and investigative fees are not “massive fines.” Those are optional. They could have admitted guilt 10 years ago and not had to pay them.

And, speaking of 10 years, they had that long to spread that billion dollars over. They’ve probably made $300B in that time. $1B is a drop in the bucket.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#175

Post by watwut »

dgzl wrote: post #121
mayneack wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. This analogy doesn't hold for a lot of reasons, but the most obvious is that teachers don't get to choose their students. CEOs can (and should) fire employees that don't live up to their ethical responsibilities.

A better analogy: Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding a principal responsible for teachers getting into fights or having sex. Or, whatever problems teachers cause

When teachers end up physically fighting among themselves often, yes principal is responsible. Absolutely. Principal should have deal with the problem when it appeared first time. Principal is responsible for school culture.

But, teachers are allowed to have sex.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#176

Post by onetimemanytime »

paulajohnson wrote: post #165
LanceH wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked somewhere that the policy was you don't pay bribes. You hire a local company capable of navigating the nuances of the local permitting process.

And what happens when your consultant bills you for a big but vaguely described fee?

I am sure that everyone involved knows what it is about. Eventually they will get caught and squeal. The local guys have immunity from local prosecution but FBI is a different story.

Usually a leader's family member or a trusted person will create a consulting business and help you "navigate" local rules and obtain permits. As soon as money is exchanged a phone call is made and you're untouchable. You call it a bribe, they call it their money. Just like their salary, bribes are part of their compensation.

Say, Russia, can close any business, any time they want. It's impossible to comply with all their rules and regs (by design) and even if you could, no court will rule in your favor. So...enter middlemen.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#177

Post by tigershark »

stickfigure wrote: post #169
tigershark wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just to understand, would you be against prosecuting pedophiles that go abroad in a country where having underage sex is not a crime to rape children? Over the course of human history it was perfectly normal to have sex with underage people, so it seems a rather fitting comparison.

That becomes a way more interesting hypothetical if you strip away the emotionally charged language. Let's say a twenty-year-old Californian goes to Canada, meets a 16-year-old, and they have sex. This is (according to wikipedia, don't rely on me for legal advice!) illegal in California and legal in Canada. Do you think someone should go to jail?

I was clearly speaking about pedophiles. Do you know the difference between pedophilia and ephebophilia?

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#178

Post by cc81 »

mmanfrin wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

No employee is breaking laws in an effort to further the objectives of a company in a vacuum. A CEO is absolutely not absolved of crimes committed in the name of the company, especially over the span of a decade.

Sure they can. There might for example be sales people who are operating in countries where bribes are common and despite clearly stated no bribes policies they will still bribe or behave unethically to win deals and further their career/compensation.

If it is reasonable to think that the leadership should have known about it then sure they can be blamed as well but often that is not something that is reasonable to expect.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#179

Post by cc81 »

jedberg wrote: post #51

Question: What does the United States gain by disallowing US companies to bribe government officials outside the United States? From a purely logistical standpoint, it seems like it would make more sense for those other countries to police these activities, or for the US to give the information they have to those governments to fine the companies as they see fit in their own countries. Why does the US fine US compani…

The US is also fining foreign companies that are involve in bribery scandals but does business in the US.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#180

Post by boybd »

pravda wrote: post #104
mruts wrote: post #72

I live in Africa and pay bribes on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. It’s hard to do anything at all without bribes here, and I am certainly sympathetic of it. People who don’t have experience with 3rd world countriss often think it’s a big deal bribing someone. But it’s not, it’s a simple fact of life. I don’t really see anything wrong with a company doing it either. In fact, I kind of like paying bribes. Unlike i…

Sounds nice, in certain ways. Which country?

Sounds like Tanzania from post history.
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